Anna: My guest today, Sara Hunter, is a lover of adventure. She is also a licensed clinical mental health counselor and a certified emotionally focused couples therapist who works with individuals and couples in the office and the outdoors. Sara began working in outdoor education as a field instructor for NOLS in 2009 and started practicing as a mental health counselor in 2015. Sara is also a PMBIA Level 1 mountain bike instructor. Through adventure therapy, Sara helps her clients navigate their discomfort zone and work through protective behaviors experientially while mountain biking. Sara enjoys long days in the mountains, whether it’s on her mountain bike or on foot, as a way to experience joy and growth, connect with herself and loved ones, and find a sense of peace that she only finds in nature. Welcome, Sara. I’m really excited to have a conversation with you here on the podcast.

Sara: Thank you, Anna. Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited, too.

Anna: I’ve known of you for many years, and we had a conversation at a party we were both attending. I think that was the first time I realized that you do therapy on mountain bike rides, as a session. I thought that was so fascinating, so I definitely want to hear more about that. And I always start off with the same question for my guests. When I say discomfort zone, what comes up for you, or what’s present for you?

Sara: The first words that come up for me are excitement and growth. I can get pretty bored in my comfort zone, so I get pretty excited about the discomfort zone. I think, oh, what’s that going to be like? What am I going to learn? What am I going to do there? And it always ends up leading to growth, even if it’s tough.

Anna: What kinds of experiences bring up the discomfort zone for you?

Sara: It’s funny you ask that. Things like this, actually, talking about my work. I’m such an experiential person that when I’m talking about something rather than doing it, I can get into my discomfort zone. And I think also pushing those edges. I’ll find a place where I want to grow and then set a goal. So stepping into that, whether it’s on my bike and working back into technical terrain, or navigating a new thing at work and learning a new technique. I just started taking couples out mountain biking for their sessions, so there are new things here.

Anna: How do you approach or work through the discomfort, whether it’s being here on this podcast or taking a couple out, or trying something new in your work? You mentioned excitement, and knowing growth is going to happen. So I guess another question would be, what’s uncomfortable about it, and how do you approach that piece of it?

Sara: Let me slow down. So this is one thing that I do, is I’ll notice. Can you ask the question one more time, Anna?

Anna: Yeah, I’d started it down one track. Why it came up was that you mentioned earlier the discomfort zone feels exciting for you because you know that there’s growth. And by nature of it being a discomfort zone, something is uncomfortable. So how do you approach, work through, or be with the discomfort of it? To get to the excitement, maybe?

Sara: That’s a great question, because nervousness comes up first, obviously, in the moment and in thinking about it. But I think what I do is slow down and get in touch with what’s actually happening, because I can overthink things when I get into discomfort and think about how I can execute this in the best way. I think that’s what I just did with you, actually. I closed my eyes and slowed down, and then I asked myself what I needed. And it was, I need to ask Anna what the question actually was again, because I got a little bit fluttery and lost my train of thought.

Anna: Yeah, I saw that and experienced that, and I appreciate it so much, because I don’t ask enough clarifying questions sometimes. For me, sometimes it’s in a conversation with someone I don’t really know, like at a doctor’s office, and they’re telling me something that either makes my life more difficult or that I don’t understand. I don’t know if I was specifically taught not to ask clarifying questions, but it wasn’t a thing I was brought up being taught. And I’ll walk out of that interaction and have so many questions and not really understand what just happened. That actually makes my life more difficult and more challenging. And then I also start to make myself wrong. So what you just did, I think, takes a lot of courage and self-awareness, and also self-expression, to be able to pause and ask, what do I need? I’m really challenging myself in that realm right now. That’s a big theme in my life. So I appreciate you modeling that for me in this instance a few moments ago.

Sara: Thank you. It’s actually taken me a lot of courage and work to be able to do that, to slow down. Even with my clients, if I’m getting to this place where I’m trying to help them rather than being in the present process, and I’m always trying to help my clients, but you know what I mean, trying to get somewhere, I really have to close my eyes in session and say, hold on, I need a second. I need to reset. And that modeling, that vulnerability, actually helps me slow down and really be myself with them, which is exactly what I need to do when I’m facing discomfort in all areas, but especially in moments like that. And also with you. I feel so much better now that I named my nervousness, slowed down, did the vulnerable thing of closing my eyes and asking you to ask me that question again. It helped me connect with you better, and with myself. And now I’m more present.

Anna: Yeah, and I appreciated the asking as well, because it helped me ask a clearer question. It allowed me to ask myself, what am I asking right now? So I think there are benefits. You mentioned it has taken you a lot of courage and work to get there. What do you think is the resistance to taking our time, being present, and asking clarifying questions? I know everyone’s different, but if there was a theme, maybe.

Sara: I think there’s always really good intention there. I think it’s striving to do well. I know that’s what it is for me. I want to get this right. I want to share this information in a way that people can understand it and really get something out of it. But when I’m in that place, I’m overthinking and trying to figure out the best way to do something, rather than the truth that’s already inside of me that would come out a lot better if I would just be more connected to myself and my body and speak from there. So yeah, I do think it’s this desire to do well.

Anna: Is it perfectionism also? That would go a step beyond, but that’s what I kind of hear in the background, also for myself.

Sara: Absolutely. Yes. I think that’s it for me, too. You’re right, more than a desire to do well, because I think we all have that when we’re going toward a goal. It’s trying to get it exactly right. That perfectionistic part. That’s what I was thinking of in preparing for this, and being on here. I want to get it exactly right. I want to say the right thing. And when we try to get it right or get it perfect, that’s when my head gets buzzy, when I feel my head get light and I’m overthinking. So yes, I think perfectionism is absolutely the main part of that.

Anna: Yeah. And with my example of being in a conversation in an office with someone I don’t really know, it’s also not wanting to look bad, not wanting to look stupid because I have to ask these clarifying questions. And talking about working with folks, I like to tell my kayaking clients and also my coaching clients, please ask clarifying questions. I want to hear them. To try and set up that atmosphere, that container that allows for that, so there’s time and space for it.

I want to hear more about your work. When you said, I take folks out mountain biking as part of a therapy session, I was fascinated by that. It actually made me think for a split moment, maybe it would be worth going back to school and getting my master’s in counseling, because I’ve thought of it over the years. That would light me up. Could I do a therapy session on the water? But I’m not a therapist, and then the thought of that much school. It’s okay, I don’t mind being a coach, and I’m very, very clear on what my work boundaries are with that. But getting back to you, and hopefully you can answer this, and you’ll tell me what you can and can’t answer, obviously. I want to know if there’s discomfort in taking people for therapy sessions out in the woods and out biking, or whether that actually feels more comfortable.

Sara: That’s a great question. It’s more comfortable for me in certain ways. I would say beginning that process was very uncomfortable, just because of the years it took to get there and all the steps I had to take. And I will say that I’m most comfortable teaching outdoors and doing therapy outdoors, because I feel more like myself there. And it’s so experiential. When people are in their discomfort zone, they react rather than respond, and I’m trying to help them identify what their reactions are in the moment, experientially. So it’s comfortable in the sense that I love outdoor education, teaching, and facilitating outside, and I feel very comfortable there. And also, the work just happens. We’re doing present process, and I feel very comfortable in that scenario, when things are naturally occurring and we get to process presently, in the moment.

Anna: And are you setting up a session? If you’re trying to get folks into their discomfort zone to then process, do you pick a certain trail, or certain moves or lines? How does that fit in? Or, like you just mentioned, a lot of it occurs naturally. Does it not matter what trail you go on, and it’s just about, if there’s a climb, it’s uncomfortable, or a jump, or something else?

Sara: It’s very dependent on the client I’m taking out. I will say that adventure therapy on mountain bikes works best for folks who are not avid riders. This is a small portion of my practice, and the way that I choose clients I think this will be a good fit for is if they’re kind of in their freeze response. What I mean by that is they’re kind of stuck in the office setting, and we might need an experience to get their nervous system activated to help them be more flexible in the way they show up in their life. So it’s a progression. I’ll start them in the grass, teaching them body position, how to use their shifting, their brakes, all that kind of stuff. Then we move to a slope in the grass, and we start talking about their body, what they’re feeling, and their nervous system, and just getting used to that. Then we talk about, what do you want to do with that? And once they get some vocabulary there, and they’re getting vocabulary in their body, then we’ll take it to the trail, where there might be some roots and rocks, but it’s flat. Then we progress to a steeper grade. I’m adding things in, in order to titrate up to more and more resistance. But that totally depends on the client.

Anna: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. I totally had it in my head that it was the reverse, that it was for experienced bikers. So tell me why inexperienced riders are better candidates for this type of therapy.

Sara: The goal is to get people, I’m just going to stick with your language here, into their discomfort zone. Not their flooded zone, where they’re in panic or completely frozen, but into their discomfort zone. For people who are mountain bikers and love it and feel very comfortable there, they’re not really going to get into their discomfort zone. It’s actually sometimes easier to work with those folks on the couch, because they’re more uncomfortable there. I actually work with outdoors folks and adventurers, and having them sit on the couch and be still is very uncomfortable. Does that answer the question?

Anna: Yes, absolutely. Now that you’ve explained it, it makes total sense. And being in the paddlesport and adventure sport community, it also makes total sense that sitting and talking would be much more uncomfortable for most folks. Why do you think that is?

Sara: Well, I’ll just speak personally. I know for me, being still is very uncomfortable. I learned over the past ten years that vulnerability is tough for me. Sitting still, tuning in, and being present with my deep, core, vulnerable emotion is not something I learned as a kid or as a young adult. So being still and feeling is pretty tough. And I think a lot of us move as a way to, and I’m not saying this is all the time, because movement is medicine, and I love mountain biking and rock climbing and all of those things, but I think I used to use that as a way to avoid slowing down and tuning in.

Anna: Yeah, I see that in folks in the paddling world as well. I am not like that. I actually really enjoy sitting and talking, and also meditating. Well, that’s true and not true, actually. Sometimes with the folks I’m closest to, I have a harder time sitting and being present. With folks that I know less well, or when I’m working, coaching, teaching, that comes very naturally to me. I sometimes say that being the leader, not that I have to be up front in the limelight, but being the leader, the facilitator, the organizer, is much more comfortable for me than regular social interactions. What do you think that’s about?

Sara: Yes, me too. I think for me, it’s that I have a job, and there’s structure there. Structure sets me free, because I know what I need to do, so I can rest easy and be myself. But when I’m just thrown into a social setting or a group as a participant, there’s vulnerability there. I don’t know what’s going to happen here. I don’t know these people very well. And even with our closest people, that’s also extremely vulnerable, because we’re sharing our deepest parts of ourselves that sometimes we might be ashamed of or afraid of.

Anna: Yeah. And there’s also the unknown. With the work, you have a job to do, and people come to work with me because they know something about me and feel like my work resonates. I don’t worry so much about whether they’re going to like me, because again, I have a job to do, and over the years I’ve helped folks get results, so I feel confident in that. But I’m less confident in a social interaction that doesn’t really have a purpose. I always think that’s really interesting when I observe myself in those situations.

Sara: Yes, that makes so much sense. I have a purpose, and I’m confident in that, and I know how to execute it. And I can also roll with the uncertainty, because I can always come back to my purpose.

Anna: Yeah, exactly. When you think about helping clients move through discomfort, what are some strategies that you’ve found helpful, or that get results for folks?

Sara: It’s a great question, and so many things come to mind. I think slowing down first, and noticing what’s happening in the body, being able to name that and also connect it to a need or a story. So, what’s happening in the body, and then also what’s happening in the brain. Then being able to ask themselves what they need, or orienting to safety, is so helpful for folks. And I think also breaking things down. So many of my clients will think, okay, this looks really hard, so I just want to use adrenaline and go. What I’m trying to help them do is respond to that feature rather than react to it. Slow down, notice how they’re feeling in their body, put an emotion to it, and ask, okay, what do I need? Orienting to safety there is asking them, what skills do you have? Orienting to safety in their skills, or in their body, by slowing down with big exhales and engaging the parasympathetic nervous system. It might be titrating up to the move. Okay, we’re just going to get our front wheel on that rock, and then we’re going to step off. Then we’re going to move over that rock and step off in the middle. And then the next time, we’ll go through the entire feature. Really slowing it down to help their nervous system be present, and not get flooded.

Anna: I have a few follow-up questions from that, thank you for sharing. One is, when you say name what’s happening in the body, do you name feelings and location, or something else?

Sara: I start with the location, and then the sensation. Then I ask them, and I say, you may not have this, but is there an emotion that comes up for you as you start to be more present with the sensation in your body? What that might look like is, yeah, I really feel it in my chest, it’s tense, kind of this big vibration. I’m just feeling really anxious right now. This move looks huge. I’m afraid. And then we get into fear. The more that they, I think of it as walking down that path of affect assembly, where they’re naming, this is the trigger, this is what I’m feeling in my body, this is the story I have about it, and this is what I want to do about it. I actually just want to get off my bike and not go down this at all. And then we get curious about that, and I go deeper into the emotion with them, and then name what they actually want to do.

Anna: Is another way to say that, getting present to what’s so and not resisting it? Really being with what’s happening?

Sara: Yes, being with what is happening. I think that’s the close-the-eyes part, because a lot of visual stimuli can take us elsewhere. I encourage folks to be present without judgment, feeling that sensation without it being good or bad or anything at all, because that allows for more to come up. That’s the pathway where the fear might come up, or an image of them falling in the middle of that feature. And then we can start to break that down.

Anna: How important is the step of deciding what you want to do about it, or with it? With the feeling, or sensation, or the emotion?

Sara: That’s a great question. I think it’s important because that’s what people are coming to therapy for. They’re wanting to make different choices in their life, or they’re wanting their relationships to be different, or they’re wanting to connect to themselves in a truer way. Once we can slow all of that down, it’s kind of the last question before we move to new action. So if the reactive move is, I don’t want to go down that, I just want to quit, we talk about that. Once we talk about that and get to the core emotion of fear, and start talking about the fear, well, I’m afraid that I’ll fall, or I’m afraid that I won’t make it, and then I’ll be bummed and never want to bike again, we’ll talk through all of that. Then I’ll ask them, well, what would you like to do? What would you really like to do, even if we don’t do it? I think that’s the connection to the true self. Again, no pressure to do it, but I want to be curious about what you really want.

Anna: And if they name what they really want, but it’s not what they want to do right now, is it a process to get them there? I guess that’s my question.

Sara: That’s a great question. Again, that depends on the client, because there are a few different ways that could play out. I would be right there with them in that process. Okay, I totally hear you. You really want to do this, but right now your fear is flooding, it’s overwhelming you. That fear might be getting in the way of you actually doing what you want, but I want to honor that and be right there with you in it. So, tell me what it’s like to hear that. That might shift them into, wow, okay, you really see me, you get it, I feel safer, so maybe I do want to try. Or it could be, we’ll come back next time when you have more snacks, or whatever that may be, to resource yourself better, to have more confidence to step into that. But we will come back if this is what you want, because I want you to have that experience of getting into your discomfort zone and seeing the result on the other side, feeling that empowerment.

Anna: Yeah. And what I hear, I mean, I’ve also worked with folks on the river where they tell me they don’t want to do something, and I say, that’s fine, and we just do other things. Then maybe we get to that rapid, and through building trust, and also a non-pressure situation, they actually decide for themselves that they do want to do it. And then we talk about steps for that. I know you’re saying that non-bikers are some of the best candidates for the biking therapy, and I think that in the outdoor industry, at least in my experience coming up in the paddlesports world, there was so much pressure and judgment to do things a certain way, or to be badass, or to run this gnarly thing. And I never had a chance to really process anything. People come with that kind of cultural pressure, maybe from the whitewater world or whitewater culture at large. I’m not saying everyone is like this, but there’s definitely a certain vibe in some communities. And once that is lifted, it’s so freeing for them to be able to try stuff again, to find that vulnerability, because they’re not judging themselves against this gnar, badass paddler they think they have to be. So I hear that so much of this can be applied to folks who do use adrenaline to deflect or not deal with it. At a certain point, allowing for that trust and taking that pressure off. I guess it comes back to the perfectionism we were talking about. We don’t have to do it the right way. There’s no right way to do it. I know I just said a bunch of different things, but in my mind, they’re all related.

Sara: Yes, and actually, you bring up a good point. Another part of my business is helping mountain bikers work through fear, whether it’s mental or technical. Some mountain bikers will reach out and say, I love mountain biking, can we go mountain bike for sessions? And I get really clear with them that it’s not riding and talking, that it’s experiential, and this is how that looks. We talk through that, and they may still want to go out, and that’s great. But then I do work with folks who say, okay, there’s this feature on this trail, and I get in my head every time, and all this fear is flooding me. Can we go work that? I love that work so much, because you’re right, we get to talk through all the external pressures from peers or the community, our own pressures, and also the technical feature right in front of us.

Anna: So how do you go about setting up the container for those folks to move through their fear, or accomplish what they want to accomplish?

Sara: I have a pretty good structure for my clients who are more of my trauma clients. For the folks who are coming to me to work through a specific fear on their bike, that’s a lot of collaboration. I’m asking them to talk to me about a few different features, and then we choose one, and I create some structure around however long they want to go for. Usually it’s two to four hours. A lot of it is warming up, and then we go to that spot and we process, what is the scary thing for you? Then we go through the body, work on titration, and work their way through, hopefully working through that feature.

Anna: Okay, that was my other question. What does titration mean? I keep meaning to ask you. It’s funny, because we’ve talked three times now about asking clarifying questions. It’s not because I was scared to ask, I just keep getting off on other tangents. But what does that mean?

Sara: Yes, sorry. I’ll use a mountain biking example. In a clinic that summer, we would use a log ride as a way to titrate the nervous system. Our participants would get to this log ride, and they’re beginner mountain bikers, and they’re like, there’s no way I can do that. So this is where we would practice titration. I might not use that word with them, but we’re just riding up to it and noticing what you feel in your body. Then they’re riding up to it and just touching it with their front wheel. The next time, they’re getting their front wheel off of it, and then they just roll right over. The next time, they may try to get both wheels on the log and then dismount off. And then the next time, they may ride the entire log. We have them do that over and over. It’s a way to, call it, slice it thinner. If the goal is to ride the entire log, we’re breaking it down and titrating up to the big-picture goal.

Anna: Gotcha. So titrate means to go in smaller steps. It also sounds like, for paddlers, hard moves in easy water is similar. The other thing I was going to say is the beauty of mountain biking is that you can get off your bike and stop. I think the elevated fear in whitewater kayaking is that you can’t stop. You have to catch an eddy, which is to stop, but catching an eddy takes skill. You can actually flip while trying to catch an eddy because of the current. So when people get hard on themselves in whitewater kayaking, I remind them, you have a venue moving underneath you. It’s dynamic. You can’t just stop and get off. And so kudos, of course, to mountain bikers, because look, I always tell my husband, I’m out here to meander. I don’t want to go fast downhill, I want to get exercise. I have mad respect for mountain bikers. And there’s something about kayaking, kudos to folks who take that on, where the trail essentially is moving underneath you, and you have to avoid obstacles and manage your speed and edge and vision and all that.

Sara: That’s why I admire you whitewater kayakers so much, because of the moving venue. And I suck at catching eddies. I’m one of those people that has a hard time even exiting.

Anna: I know, it’s hard. Well, you don’t see me on a bike. I get to a little bitty jump and I go super slow. Isn’t it interesting, talking about the stories we tell ourselves, as you mentioned earlier, depending on what we’re comfortable with? I’m way more comfortable whitewater kayaking, and much less comfortable riding downhill on a bike or going over roots. It freaks me out, because falling on hard surfaces freaks me out. But to you, catching eddies is really hard. It’s fascinating how our nervous systems, and these are my words, can get comfortable with what’s happening, get used to it, and those neural pathways in the brain form. I just think that’s fascinating, and I’m grateful for it, because it means we can continue to learn, we can continue to get more comfortable in our discomfort zones, and we can continue to grow, which is awesome.

Sara: Yes, that’s exactly the point of taking these folks mountain biking. Their environment, or the world, or their relationships are so flooding for them because of their past trauma. Being able to work through that flooding or discomfort in a safe environment, doing something that’s not even talking about their trauma, creates new neural pathways. It gives them an opportunity to practice a new way of relating to their fear, which then allows them to work through it in their own world, the one they want to be in, but that just feels too difficult.

Anna: Yeah. There’s a book that I’ve read called The Body Keeps the Score, and I’m sure you’ve read it. One of the premises there was that moving is really important for processing trauma. Then recently, and of course this was on social media, which is why I’m asking you, the expert, they were saying that new studies have come out claiming the body doesn’t actually keep the score, and that movement is not as important. I don’t know, that could have been some influencer. You really have to be careful with social media. But I’m curious. It sounds like the idea of movement works really well with your clients, and that you believe in it. Can you speak to that?

Sara: Yes, I absolutely believe that movement is medicine, and I believe that our body does remember trauma. It gets stored in the amygdala, and we hold on to that tension. The body keeps the score in many ways. I think that movement helps, one, through releasing the tension that builds up in our bodies under stress. And also, our body reacts to fear, and when we hold on to that fear and can’t access safety, that tension gets stored and builds up. So we need movement in order to release it.

Anna: Yeah, thank you for sharing. There are several organizations, for instance Team River Runner, which is a group that helps wounded veterans heal through kayaking and stand up paddleboarding, and they’ve had amazing results. So I think biking, kayaking, getting outside in nature is so important.

Sara: Sorry, I get excited about this. It’s just like EMDR therapy. It’s not the same, but the bilateral stimulation of pedaling and trail scanning during biking actually slows down the nervous system’s threat response. So with my clients who I’ve seen for a while, we go ride an easier trail and just pedal. We’ve done that experiential stuff in the beginning, and now we’re just pedaling up a gravel road and they’re processing a trauma story, because their body feels more regulated and safer, and they can actually process it in a way they couldn’t on the couch, where they’re kind of debilitated by feeling stuck and frozen.

Anna: That is fascinating. That is really cool. And you’re saying the trail scanning, is that the eye movement of scanning the environment?

Sara: Yes, when your eyes are moving. But a lot of it is the pedals. The rhythmic. It’s about rhythm.

Anna: I wonder if that’s true for paddling as well, in a kayak. I don’t know that we get the same rhythm for as long in whitewater, but in flat water, yes. And scanning, we’re looking around. I never thought about that. That’s fascinating. I love EMDR. I’ve done it a few times, and I do it myself sometimes. I think about it when I’m walking, too, that bilateral movement. Hiking. So fascinating, and it’s very hopeful that you can get out and do stuff. Then it’s a matter of finding ways to go do it, like these different organizations, or finding someone like you who does this type of work. When you say they’re processing trauma stories, are they talking through it as they’re pedaling?

Sara: Yes.

Anna: With you. Interesting. Cool. Thanks for sharing so much, Sara. I appreciate the work that you do. And bringing forward that there are different modalities, and hearing about them, is also very hopeful. It doesn’t have to be just one way. Folks can find something that works for them.

Sara: Yes, absolutely. And I think it’s also what works for me. That helps my clients, because I’m being my truest self as a therapist, and that’s where I’m going to do my best work. It took me a while to get to this place, but now I do feel like, this is it. This is where I can really help people who’ve been stuck.

Anna: That’s a really great feeling. When you first started out, did you always have an idea that this is what you could do? Or would your younger self look at you now and think, wow, that’s way cool, I never would have thought of that?

Sara: It was such a journey. I started as a NOLS student who’d only ever camped at the beach, and then fell in love with the mountains and what I learned there about myself. Then I became a NOLS instructor, and then realized, well, I want to go to graduate school to be a counselor. Sitting in my first class, I remember thinking, okay, I have to do this. This is terrifying. I’m not good at school, or I wasn’t before. But I knew I wanted to, and at that point it was take people rock climbing for therapy, that’s a whole other story. I knew I wanted to take people on adventures for therapy, because it was so helpful for me. It’s what helped me heal so much of the stuff I went through as a child and in my teenage years. So I knew I wanted to do it, but I knew it was going to be a long journey to get there.

Anna: Yeah, that’s cool that there was something inside of you saying, you’ve got to do this, and that you listened to that voice. You followed it, even though I’m sure it was challenging, and probably felt like it would never work at some point.

Sara: Yes, it did feel like that. There were a lot of road bumps that I didn’t let turn into stop signs. They were just road bumps.

Anna: Love that. And we didn’t even get into your solo bikepacking trips, which are so courageous to me. We’ll have to have another conversation at another time. Sara, do you have a question for me?

Sara: Yeah. Like I said in the beginning, excitement. I love hearing about people’s discomfort zones and what they’ve learned. How to help themselves in their discomfort zone, or what you’ve learned from others. Something that you never thought would come up when talking to people about this, that you’ve learned about the discomfort zone, or what to do in the discomfort zone.

Anna: Honestly, in this conversation, something I’ve learned that I had never heard before, that I’m kind of excited about paying more attention to, is that bilateral movement of paddling. I’m really curious about the scanning. That’s something new that I had never thought of in terms of paddling. I only thought of it in terms of walking and doing actual EMDR, but hadn’t thought of it in biking. So that is very cool.

The themes that keep coming up are growth, that the discomfort zone is growth, slowing down, like you said, paying attention, being present. In the beginning of this podcast, I don’t think I realized how many similarities there would be between guests, which is actually very cool. And I like that, because if folks are listening to many episodes, repetition, and hearing the same thing said in different ways, can be so helpful. A lot of it is very similar, and yet because everyone is unique, they’re saying it in a unique way that will resonate with some people and maybe not others. Breathing, being present, slowing down. And I love how the connection to the body, being connected to your body and having that self-awareness, has been a theme. It’s interesting that I didn’t think much about it, because it’s something that’s very present in my life. In fact, a lot of times my PT, my trainer, my doctors are fascinated by how much I feel. If a trainer asks me, where do you feel this exercise, I’ll go into, well, on this part of my quad it feels like this, and over here it feels like this. And he’s like, okay, too much information. So that has been affirming. And the humanity of it. We’re all embodied, and we have everything that we need. It’s a matter of, like you said, tuning into that, getting present to it.

Sara: Cool, thanks for answering that. I like listening.

Anna: I always feel like I have long-winded answers, but so much comes up. Okay, are you ready for rapid fire? Some of this I’m going to switch up a little bit, because the first one was, what’s your favorite river metaphor? But I’m going to ask you, what is your favorite mountain biking or hiking metaphor for life? If you have one.

Sara: Oh my God. I can’t do this rapid fire. The metaphor. I mean, it’s so cliche, but healing is like a mountain range. We go up a lot of peaks, then we get to the summit, and then there’s a huge valley. And then we get to climb again.

Anna: That’s great, thanks. Okay, what’s a morning ritual that sets you up for success?

Sara: I go get a cup of coffee, and then I go stand outside for a few moments. Then hopefully I get to foam rolling if I have time. But always, grab the coffee and go outside.

Anna: Nice. What’s a non-negotiable self-care practice?

Sara: Movement.

Anna: What motivates you these days?

Sara: Love and adventure.

Anna: What do people get wrong about you?

Sara: I’m actually pretty shy.

Anna: Okay. Throughout the course of your life, have you felt like the underdog or the favored to win?

Sara: Maybe favored to win.

Anna: Okay, awesome. This is going to be an interesting one. Hard moves in easy water, or flooding?

Sara: When you say flooding, what do you mean?

Anna: I mean the river is flooding, it’s really high, you’re all in. You’re just dropping in. Or you practice the hard moves in easy water, like titration.

Sara: Okay, yeah. Flooding. I’m a flooding kind of gal.

Anna: I know. Okay, in one word, what’s a word that describes your comfort zone?

Sara: My comfort zone, one word. I guess this is more than one word: a long day in the mountains.

Anna: Nice. Freedom through discipline, or I do what I want?

Sara: Freedom through discipline.

Anna: In one word, what do you hope your legacy will be?

Sara: Truth.

Anna: That is a first. I haven’t had anyone say that word. It’s awesome. Okay, I have a follow-up question because of the flooding question. What do you think makes people who enjoy flooding good at breaking things down and creating a non-pressure environment? I’m just curious, because you love to go for it. I think of Somerville also, she likes to go for it, and y’all are both really great at creating containers within which people can be vulnerable. How do you make that shift?

Sara: That’s a great question. I think oftentimes I don’t do as well for myself as I do for others. And I will say, with flooding, I do like to go all in, but sometimes I might need to step back. I think this is the freedom-through-discipline piece, too. I see what I want and I’m going to go for it, but that might mean I need to break it down some. So I have to get clear and honest about that. Is this something I can just go for? Because if it is, I will. But then I have to slow down and be honest. No, I think I need to break it down. There’s a section on Bennett Gap that I always have to break down slowly. I know that about myself, but then I get to work up to the place where I get to go all in. Managing risk in that way is something I also really enjoy, and it feels like going all in to me.

Anna: Yeah, thanks for that. How can people get in touch with you, Sara, or find out about you?

Sara: They can find out about me on my website, which is sarahuntercounseling.com. I’m not on Instagram a lot, but I have an Instagram handle for the mountain bike therapy portion of my business. It’s @mindfulmountainbike. And my email is on my website.

Anna: Cool. I’ll link your website in the show notes on my website, where the podcast lives. Thanks so much, Sara, for taking the time to be here. I really enjoyed our conversation. Appreciate you.

Sara: Thank you, Anna.