Anna Levesque
My guests today are French Broad River keeper, Anna Alsobrook and River Cleanup Operations Manager for Mountain True, John Stamper. As Mountain True’s French Broad River keeper, Anna facilitates water quality monitoring, citizen science, and improvement programs in the French Broad River watershed. Prior to moving to Western North Carolina and working for Mountain True in 2014, she was a Peace Corps volunteer in rural Senegal and at
and attained her undergraduate and graduate degrees at the University of Tennessee Knoxville. John Stamper was born and raised in Asheville and resides in Madison County. Stamper is a veteran of the United States Marines. For over a decade, Stamper has worked as a raft guide, swift water rescue instructor, and operations manager of a local river outfitter. Stamper is an avid boater who loves being in a raft whenever possible.
He’s excited to help with the cleanup of our region’s rivers, and he’s committed to helping ensure cleanup efforts are safe and inclusive. Welcome, y’all. Thanks so much for being here.
Anna Alsobrook
Thanks for having us.
Jon Stamper
Yeah, thanks for having us on.
Anna Levesque
Yeah. So I’m going to start with a question and then we’ll see where it goes and layer on some context in the context of Hurricane Helene and the amazing work that y’all do. To start though, I’ll just ask the general question. What does discomfort mean to you or discomfort zone? Like when I say discomfort zone, what does that?
mean to you or what comes up. Anna, let’s start with you and then we’ll go to Stamper.
Anna Alsobrook
Sure, so for me, I think I’m feeling it right now. I’m like a little elevated. Oftentimes it’s like me talking about feelings and stuff I don’t feel well versed in talking about. I do recognize it as a learning opportunity and a zone of growth.
Anna Levesque
Yeah.
Anna Levesque
Hmm.
Anna Alsobrook
And for that reason, I try not to shy away from it, but I can’t say that I always don’t shy away from it.
Anna Levesque
Yeah, I hear you. What about you, Stamper?
Jon Stamper
Yeah, I think for me, kind of maybe I’m looking at it a little bit more from like a, you know, out in the world, kind of pushing yourself out into an area where you either feel challenged or maybe just a little bit beyond what you feel is normal. Whether that be, you know, in a river or in a cold work day or anything that’s just kind of just outside of where you feel like you kind of center around home.
Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.
Anna Levesque
Hmm. Yeah. And what are some strategies that y’all use to move through your discomfort zone when you’re in it?
Anna Alsobrook
So this is gonna sound weird, but I feel it like I have itchy armpits when I’m feeling the discomfort zone. I don’t know if that’s normal. And so when I see, when I feel that happening, I’m like, this is a time for me to get in my body, like discover what’s going on, where, try to focus on my breath.
Anna Levesque
Love it. I love weird. Way to jump in.
Anna Levesque
Mm.
Anna Alsobrook
and get myself out of my brain. I’m pretty brain heavy as a seven on the Enneagram. And yeah, I just try to take a moment to remove myself from either the situation or my brain and bring myself back into my body.
Anna Levesque
Hmm.
yeah.
Anna Levesque
Hmm. Yeah. I’m an eight on the Enneagram. The challenger. What’s seven?
Anna Alsobrook
yeah?
Seven’s like enthusiast, I think is the official word.
Anna Levesque
Cool. Right on. I’ve been thinking I need to go back and read those.
Anna Alsobrook
We just did a whole staff retreat on it, so it’s fresh for us.
Anna Levesque
you did. how cool. That’s awesome. All right, then, know, John, I have to ask, what’s your, what are you on the Enneagram?
Jon Stamper
landed as a nine. Yeah, sure, I landed as a nine. think it’s
Anna Levesque
Nice, right on. What are some strategies that you use, John, for facing your discomfort zone and moving through it?
Jon Stamper
Sure. Yeah, I think for me it’s kind of like just acknowledging the feeling like the butterflies in the stomach or the little anxiousness or anxiety about, you know, what needs to be done next. And then just kind of trying to separate myself from it a little bit and look at the outcome. And if it’s a scalp going down a river, it’s like, you know, starting at the end of the rapid and working back, you know, upstream. And if it’s…
you know, a hard day in the field or something. just kind of grounding myself in remembering that, you know, at the end of the day, you know, should be walking out of it back into a warm house and family and friends and that sort of thing. So, kind of try to just acknowledge it. And then sometimes you got to trick yourself to move past it a little bit, but just keep moving.
Anna Levesque
Mm.
Anna Levesque
Yeah, I love that you both pointed to embodiment and grounding in different ways. That’s why I love having these conversations is to hear different folks’ perspective. And sometimes it points to a similar strategy, but there’s different ways of getting to it. And I really love that, that there are many different ways.
So thanks for sharing and thanks for sharing your Enneagrams. And then, so if we layer on, I mean, okay, Hurricane Helene last year, catastrophic, I mean, flood, storm that affected, deeply affected people, rivers, ecosystems,
Anna Alsobrook
you
Anna Levesque
And so if we layer that on, what was your… How was it to face that discomfort zone from y’all’s perspective, know, being really involved in the, I’ll say environmental community? Y’all probably have a more specific term for it, but being involved in the rivers and committed to the rivers. What was that like for y’all?
moving through that discomfort zone.
Anna Alsobrook
I can start. I was actually not here when Helene hit. I was at a Riverkeeper conference in Milwaukee. And I think I was one of the few people who could see how big of an impact Helene was having in real time. Just seeing what people were posting and what little news was coming out about it. My boss Hartwell
Anna Levesque
Hmm.
Anna Alsobrook
was text, people were texting me videos and photos of what was going on around them. Also, information was coming out of like potential dam failures on certain rivers and so it was really hard for me to not be here. I just taking it all in from afar felt very helpless and just so itchy to come back into town.
Anna Levesque
Mm.
Anna Alsobrook
I was able to get back into town, I think it was the Sunday after the storm hit, and to see it with my eyes was another, a whole other story. And that was every inch of the watershed I went to, it was just like devastation. And so kind of like,
Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.
Anna Alsobrook
having a bit of survival skill to about not being here when the storm hit, also turning into what do we do next? How do we navigate this? There’s no playbook for how to deal with a natural disaster like this.
And then layering into that, you know, taking care of my family, my neighborhood, with what capacity I had, when and where. It was just, I kind of call it like trial by error. We just tried a lot of things and saw what stuck. I’m forgetting what your original question was now, Anna, sorry about that.
Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and what’s the strategy now? Like the strategy that you used to move through the discomfort zone of the challenge, all the things that came up with Helene.
Anna Alsobrook
Yeah, it was a lot of just talking to people in the community and learning from them what their stories were to frame our next steps. So for us at Mountain True, we decided to just start grilling food for people. know, people didn’t have electricity in the Asheville area and
Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.
Anna Alsobrook
We set up several shops where we just grilled hot dogs and hamburgers and some of the community center response zones. And that put us in front of hundreds of people and we could hear their stories and hear what they were worried about. And through those conversations, we learned that a lot of people had, you know, if you’re in the city of Asheville, you didn’t have drinking water.
Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.
Anna Alsobrook
But if you were in maybe Buncombe County or some of the surrounding counties in the watershed, and for context for listeners, the French Broad watershed spans eight counties in North Carolina, five counties in East Tennessee, all of which were severely affected by Helene. If you were in another area besides Asheville, you may have been on a private drinking water well, which got flooded by Helene.
and those folks didn’t know if it was safe to drink their water. So sampling drinking water is not something we typically do here at Mountain True. We usually do surface waters like creeks and streams. But the skill set is the same. It’s the same method. And so we set up all over the place for private drinking water well sampling so that we could let folks know if they could drink from their own
Anna Levesque
Hmm.
Anna Levesque
Mm.
Anna Alsobrook
drinking water source. And then that put us in front of even more people to hear concerns and navigate what those might be and how we might be able to plug in. We partnered with another nonprofit, Wine to Water, to bring people water filters who might need them. And then we got on the ground to sample
Anna Levesque
Hmm.
Anna Alsobrook
both the river in certain areas as well as the sediments along the bank, specifically targeting areas that may have been below industries that were flooded or hazardous waste zones, superfund sites, things like that, because people wanted to get in and they wanted to muck out their buildings and start putting their lives back together. There was a rumor coming out.
Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.
Anna Levesque
Yeah.
Anna Alsobrook
in Marshall about potential boots melting from folks who were trying to muck out their businesses and we wanted to be able to tell folks how to keep themselves safe when they start doing that kind of stuff. And so we did a pretty big watershed analysis of what was in the river, what was in the sediments, when and how much, looking at pretty specific and intense toxins.
Anna Levesque
Mm.
Anna Alsobrook
And, you know, that allowed us to be kind of a resource for the community. Like, Mountain True knows what’s going on. Let’s turn to them to figure out how we can do we need to wear PPE? Do we need to take a well sample? Do we need to shock our wells? And then, you know, kind of through all of that, we recognize an energy in the community to want to help.
and started doing these volunteer-based river cleanups and greenway cleanups. And the first cleanup we did was in the River Arts District of Asheville along the greenway. I mean, it was maybe five days or six days after the storm. And I think we had a hundred or 150 people show up for two hours. And I don’t know, Anna, if you probably saw the greenway right after the storm. It was insane.
Anna Levesque
Wow.
Anna Alsobrook
And I didn’t take photos and I kind of wish I had, but it looked apocalyptic. But within two hours of just those 150, we made a huge difference. And I’ll kind of leave it there because that’s where Stamper comes in and he’s been a unicorn in a night and shining armor for us since those days. And he’s really taken that idea and grown it to where we are now. So I can let him talk to that.
Anna Levesque
Yeah.
Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.
Anna Levesque
Hmm.
Anna Levesque
Yeah.
Jon Stamper
I appreciate that.
Anna Alsobrook
We have decided we all need a bobblehead of stamper to have on our little dashboards.
Jon Stamper
boy. Well, yeah, so when Pauline hit at that time, I was still, I was not a part of Mountain True. I worked at an outfitter here in Western North Carolina. You know, I’ve been in the kind of outfitting industry for a long time, worked with a lot of incredible people that really care about getting folks into our rivers in Western North Carolina.
Anna Levesque
That’d be awesome.
Anna Levesque
Mm.
Jon Stamper
And yeah, when the flood hit, had implemented our emergency action plan. The property, we had four properties that were along the river. All four of them, unfortunately, were flooded and destroyed. So I basically found myself in a situation where I was, you know, didn’t have secure employment. I was just ready to get to work. I’m kind of, pretty, if I, if I don’t know what to do, generally the answer for me is just to get busy doing something. immediately following the flood, there was a lot of uncertainty for us as far as what.
Anna Levesque
Hmm.
Anna Levesque
Hmm.
Jon Stamper
you know, the doubt that it was going to look like. I was in the category that Anna brought up of folks that had a water source. I live in a rural area and have spring fed water. So my water source was not compromised. So I just started delivering water, you know, to whoever and wherever I could. So that was kind of the immediate reaction, you know, in December. if you fast forward a couple of months beyond clean.
Mountain True created a position essentially to amplify the cleanup effort and the volunteer work. they, you know, thankfully brought me on. We kind of started with, you know, again, amplifying the incredible volunteer base that Mountain True is so fortunate to have. We got to work and we started focusing on river access locations and places where guides…
work, whether it’s rafting or fishing, really in the hopes of kind of over the winter getting the put-ins and takeouts back ready to use so that in the spring we could get in the rivers and start working more and more. So that’s kind of where it started and where we’re at now is we just hired our 83rd person to our workforce that is full-time out there cleaning up our rivers, know, executing what is the largest state funded
Anna Levesque
Wow.
Jon Stamper
River cleanup operation in North Carolina history.
Anna Levesque
Amazing. Wow. Yeah, so it sounds to me that both of you are action oriented in your response, right? And I’m grateful for folks like y’all who, you know, boots on the ground and yeah, went to work. And I also appreciate how
Y’all, sounds like you said, Anna was like trial by, I think you said trial by error, but just, I don’t know if that’s exactly what you said, but just trying stuff out. Like not knowing, cause no one knew what to do. And I’ve heard that from a lot and it’s kind of like, yeah, in my neighborhood as well, there was no playbook. So you just looked for what you could do and
I think that’s.
inspirational because it’s, think, in general, people have a tendency to be like, I don’t know what to do and feeling like they need to do something the right way when really doing what you can or collaborating with folks and trying stuff out. Even
in the absence of a natural disaster, just in life. If we’re talking facing discomfort zone, I mean, that is a really great strategy. You don’t have to know what you’re doing always. Like, yes, of course, every time about river running, you want to have skill. Like there’s definitely times and places where you want to have certain skill and have developed yourself. And on the other hand, nothing ever changes if we are always waiting for the right time.
Anna Levesque
the right thing to do, the right action, and you’re not sure, right? So I think that’s really cool. Anna, when you say you weren’t here, it seemed to me like we didn’t know how bad it was. Like it was crazy because Andrew and I…
We didn’t realize how bad things were until we went to try and check on his grandfather and saw Harmony Creek and we were like, oh gosh, and then big trees. I think people from outside almost had like the videos of everything. I don’t know, that’s my perception of it is like here because we had no cell service, no power, nothing. We just didn’t know. You just knew in our neighborhood, it wasn’t so bad.
you know, but then you go out and it’s, it was really bad. yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that.
Anna Alsobrook
Yeah, and to kind of piggyback off you, I like a realization I, and I’m probably gonna word vomit so you might want to edit this at some point, but I’ve had recently is like,
Anna Levesque
That’s alright.
Anna Alsobrook
doing stuff before you’re ready or before you feel like you’re ready is a discomfort zone for people, I think, but it’s also how you learn to do more stuff in the future. We were just throwing stuff out a wall and hope to see it stick and some stuff did and some stuff didn’t and we’ve learned a lot since then. But yeah, and I’m still tweaking this on my head like
Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.
Anna Alsobrook
I kind of envision myself as this person that likes progression, like, I do this, which means I’m ready for that, which means I do this, which, you know, and it leads up and hopefully I’ll feel ready for the next step. But oftentimes doing that next step before you feel ready is really the right move because you’ll, you’re more ready than you think. You probably are underestimating your capabilities oftentimes.
Anna Levesque
Right.
Anna Levesque
Yeah, it makes me think I do a rapid fire. I’ll give you a little preview. One of my questions is hard moves in easy water or flooding. And, I love hard moves in easy water, but sometimes you’re in a flooding situation, I get literally in what we’re talking about, and you have to jump in. there is no, hopefully you’ve practiced some hard moves in easy water in some form that you can apply to the flooding.
But yeah, there’s sometimes when that is a good, even as an instructor, right? It can’t always be hard moves and easy water. That is a good strategy. And sometimes I like to challenge people right at their limit and see, you know, what happens. So love that. you know, Stamper, you started by delivering water and then you were in the community and then you were able to apply
your river running knowledge to these cleanups and now, I mean, that it’s grown to, like you said, the 83rd person being hired and the largest river cleanup in North Carolina history. I mean, that’s huge. And that that started with you like stepping up. So what is, what was that like? What, what, is your journey there? How do you see that big picture for yourself?
Jon Stamper
Sure. I think initially you’re focusing on volunteering and just amplifying that, like I mentioned. And then as we started to kind of, we brought together a pilot program to kind of learn the lessons to Anna’s point of like, there’s no playbook for this. Nobody’s really seen this kind of high velocity flooding and like this scale of damage. We’re thankful to see like federal contractors and FEMA and Corps of Engineers come up and remove the big stuff. But…
I was really impressed that Mountain True had the vision to realize that like, that was not going to take care of the entire problem that we’re facing here. The magnitude is so hard to describe. I, from my combat experience in the military, am pretty comfortable with read and run and just kind of letting things come at me and adapting as they happen. So I think that’s, frankly, I feel like it was in the right time, right place at the right time to be here, just to kind of be able to do that.
Anna Levesque
Yeah.
Anna Levesque
Yeah.
Jon Stamper
this has been such a learning curve at every step, whether it’s talking to people in the community or figuring out how to remove the corridor from the riverbank or how to safely employ a swift water rescue technique to swing a piece of metal across a waterway. So it’s been for me like this really kind of stressful at times, but mostly enjoyable puzzle to kind of put together. each day is different.
Anna Levesque
Hmm.
Jon Stamper
kind of like that, I guess, for better or worse, to just kind of read and run and adapt. And now, you know, we’re at this state now where we just crossed the four million pound mark of debris removed from our rivers. Our teams in the field are averaging close to 10,000 pounds per day. And that’s region wide all over Western North Carolina. So I’ve just been continuing with that kind of mentality of just like taking a day at a time and, you know, problems arise and we solve them.
Anna Levesque
Yeah, wow.
Anna Levesque
That’s amazing.
Jon Stamper
learn lessons from how that went and try to do better the next time.
Anna Levesque
Yeah, and that’s incredible how much y’all have removed from the rivers. it’s hard, mean, folks in Western North Carolina and paddlers definitely saw the photos, I think, of like the French Broad section nine put in right after Helene. I mean, you looked at that and you’re just like, whoa, I remember just like, whoa, like how?
how is that going to get cleaned up? Like there was so much piled on and then y’all, mean, it did get cleaned up. And then I started paddling, I don’t know, throughout the winter. then, yeah, it would, you know, again, so much along the entire river. And now, I mean,
Yeah, I’m still healing my back, so I haven’t been out there that much. But when I have been, it’s just amazing. There’s like one corner on section nine, that one sandy bottom corner that still has a bunch of stuff. But otherwise, it is so amazingly clean. And thank you for all your work. I am very grateful, like super grateful.
Jon Stamper
It’s a pleasure and honor. I would add, just so you know, as of last week, we have started working that stretch of ribbon that you just referenced specifically. we are in progress out there right now with our crews and some contractors, and then everybody can look forward to having that cleaned up soon. There’s still a lot of work to be done throughout that whole stretch, but we’re going to keep at it.
Anna Alsobrook
Hehehe.
Anna Levesque
Have you? Yeah.
Anna Levesque
sure.
Anna Alsobrook
And to, it, sorry, I was just gonna give a little context for folks who don’t live around here. So, and I thought this was fascinating, I hadn’t thought about it until I was chatting with river keepers who on the coast. You know, they have hurricanes somewhat regularly, and when they have a hurricane, the water just like comes up and it sits there for a while, and it might be there for,
Anna Levesque
Yeah. No, go ahead.
Anna Alsobrook
a week or a few weeks and then it comes back down. But for us in the mountains, that water came up but because of our topography, that water had so much power and so much velocity that it brought everything in its path downstream and all of that got tangled up on bridges. It brought houses in and it took bridges down because of how strong it was.
Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.
Anna Alsobrook
That’s the reason why we have such a cleanup process now. It’s because the sheer power of the water we saw after the storm of the hurricane.
Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.
Jon Stamper
You referenced the put in at section nine, and I think one of the things that’s really vivid for me to explain how fast and powerful the water was, was looking at the shipping container that had wrapped itself completely around the bridge column to the point where it was touching the sides of it, kind of like a horseshoe around a bridge column.
Anna Levesque
Right.
Anna Levesque
Yeah, that’s crazy. Yeah, so much power and so much stuff. So much, yeah. And houses and yeah, a lot of devastation. On the, I don’t know if it’s positive, for, know, I live close to Hominy Creek and park and
will often go up there and do attainments like upstream and then back down. I like to do that on my paddleboard. And Andrew and I were noticing how it’s actually cleaner than it was before the storm. Like the banks, there had been like a ton, even before the storm, there was like a ton of fallen trees and like stuff. And now the river is actually looks clearer, especially in the winter when there’s like, when it’s low water.
and there’s not as much debris. really took a lot of stuff downstream. And that’s probably not great for downstream, but it certainly like cleaned up the river corridor, it seemed like, to a certain extent. I don’t know how, I’m sure there are detrimental effects of that. So it looks nice. And what is your take on that?
Anna Alsobrook
That’s a controversial question. And it does depend on your perspective for sure. So and I’ll let Stamper give his two cents too. But so after the storm, there were hired contractors either through the Army Corps of Engineers or through the state that came in to kind of tackle the big debris. And when I say big debris, like
Anna Levesque
Yeah.
Jon Stamper
you
Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.
Anna Alsobrook
the houses and the railroad cars and the semis and that kind of thing. They have giant machines that they can drive up and down their waterways to get this stuff out. They also were tasked with getting out vegetative debris, so trees that had fallen in and that kind of thing. They oftentimes were found taking down live trees along the riverbanks too.
Anna Levesque
Right.
Anna Levesque
Hmm.
Anna Levesque
Mm.
Anna Alsobrook
and they, there’s a lot of nuance with this so I’m going to be kind of general. They typically get paid by the weight and so there’s an incentive for them to take more than was necessary. I’m not saying that happened in every situation but we saw that happen oftentimes and that is not what we want. You know for aquatic life we do like for there to be some woody debris in the waterways.
Anna Levesque
Sure.
Hmm.
Anna Levesque
Right.
Anna Levesque
Right.
Anna Alsobrook
That being said, you know, that stuff will come back over time. And it, from a paddling perspective, yes, it looks a lot better and it’s a lot easier to navigate, especially those skinnier stretches of water, like maybe down in Transylvania County, where things might get jammed up over time with debris, but.
Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.
Anna Alsobrook
from an aquatic perspective, we do want some debris in the waterways too. So that’s why it’s kind of a controversial question. Yeah, yeah, no worries. A lot of people don’t realize that there’s probably a case to be made that we should think about how we pay these contractors going forward to take away the incentive from them to get as much as they possibly can. And yeah, like.
Anna Levesque
Yeah, got it.
Anna Levesque
Right.
Anna Alsobrook
like we’ve said, it’s all trial by fire, so hopefully we’ll know better for the next time. But not every contractor did that everywhere. It just happened a lot. yeah, we were
Anna Levesque
Sure.
Sure. Yeah, no, it’s a good thing to bring up and be aware of. Absolutely.
Jon Stamper
You know, we needed the heavy lifting. mean, it’s just like to if you honestly to it’s impossible to describe the magnitude of the amount of debris and the area in which it covered. So, you know, the the the contractors, the Corps of Engineers and all that, they did an incredible job of removing all the big stuff. You know, I don’t know where we would be, how we have not had that support. That said, in a lot of instances, it was just focused in the wrong way and taking too much of the woody debris.
Anna Levesque
Right.
Anna Levesque
Got it.
Jon Stamper
A lot of this was to protect critical infrastructure, which totally agree. We need to protect bridges. We need to protect roads. There are a lot of instances that we saw that it didn’t really, that really wasn’t what was happening there. were just there simply folks were taking more than they needed to to be paid by volume. So I think what we’ve done is we’re coming in with a different approach, which again is, is we needed the heavy lifting from them, but we’re coming in on much more environmentally sound way. We’re doing this kind of a human powered.
level at this point, and then employing machines and heavy equipment on a much more limited basis with a lot more attention being paid to the stream banks, to the river banks. I’m really happy and proud to say that in lot of instances, kind of to your point, when we get done with a site, it’s like cleaner than it was before the hurricane because we’ve really gone through it with a fine-tooth comb. All that microclops that is being picked up.
Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.
Anna Levesque
Mm.
Jon Stamper
We are not taking any organic matter. That’s not really what we’re focused on. We’re leaving that organic matter for habitats, for eddies and places to pull over on the side of the river.
Anna Levesque
Yeah, yeah, well thanks for that work.
When you, were there ever moments like when you saw the, the semi, the shipping container around the bridge, stamper, like where, did you ever feel like, deflated? I don’t know if that’s the word, but did you ever feel like, did you ever have moments of this is, this is too much? Like this is, or like ever feel like you wanted to give up?
Or were you always like, let’s just keep going? Did you have to grapple with that at all?
Jon Stamper
Yeah. Um, you know, honestly, I’m, pretty motivated. So I’ve never really started with the, the giving up part. just learned like ready to like, all right, well, how are we going to fix this? But I will say there have been multiple days and sites where I’ve walked up and you look at it and you, like, where do you even start? Like, will we even be able to make a difference here? Um, one that like really stands out to me is Walnut Island, uh, which is just a, you know, kind of a, a, a County park.
Anna Levesque
Mm.
Jon Stamper
A lot of recreational boaters take out there. It’s a fairly small island in the middle of the French Broad River. We had to paddle across to get out there. And I’m standing on the island and looking at the magnitude of plastic and cars and trees. There was a dumpster, like your normal dumpster that you might see out behind a restaurant, that had been crumpled up into a tiny little ball about the size of a little refrigerator.
Anna Levesque
wow.
Hmm.
Jon Stamper
really hard to even approach some of the sites that we were cleaning up and, and, and still to this day, there are sites that our crews roll up on and you’re like, how are we even going to do this? And I think early on at that part, when we were still seeing these really big, dramatic sites, I just kind of had to adopt whether I wanted to or not. I kind of had to adopt the kind of one spoonful at a time mentality. And it’s like, well, we just got to start somewhere and we would, and we would get started. And then, you know, whether it’s an hour later or.
Anna Levesque
Yeah.
Jon Stamper
Three weeks later you turn around and look and you’re like wow this you know we’ve done this so that’s been my approach and that’s kind of the approach that a lot of our crews have in the field it’s like It’s gonna start somewhere, so
Anna Levesque
Yeah, yeah. I think that’s a good theme for this episode. Start somewhere, even if you don’t know where, just do your best, you know, for sure. was, so I also am very grateful that the rivers are beautiful, like, or at least let’s talk about the French Broad. It’s still great paddling because I feel like there’s still even like over a year later,
I mean, I was out on the French Broad on a beautiful fall day up at Hominy Creek. No one, this is earlier in September, still warm, sun was shining, gorgeous, and I was by myself. And part of me was like, this is great. I have the river to myself. It’s so peaceful. And part of me was like, we need, I would like people to come back to the river because it’s beautiful. And when people…
are on the river, they tend to care more about the river. And I know the French Broad has a, you know, a bad rap with certain people. I mean, I’ve paddled it now for decades. So, and at the same time, we, I want to see folks out there because if no one’s out there, then no one cares about it. And we, I don’t want people to, you know, when people are like, Ooh, the French Broad grows, you know, it’s like, okay, well,
there’s a lot of beauty on the French Broad and we can all, like you all are saying, you got to start somewhere. There’s been advocacy for water quality for a long time and in different things. and so how do you all feel about the present, the future of the French Broad, having folks come back to it? and, not just the French Broad, but you know, it could be the Nolichucky. It could be, you know, the pigeon, could be, you know, whatever, you know, rivers.
in the area.
Anna Alsobrook
I’m excited for it. I think you’re totally right, Anna. Especially the Asheville stretch of the French Broad was really quiet this summer. I do think down in Transylvania County, which wasn’t hit quite as hard, they saw pretty regular numbers in terms of outfitters down there. I’m not sure about the Section 9 outfitters. Stamper might know more than I do there. But yeah, I want people…
to come back to the river, to appreciate it, to see what it has to offer. It’s always been a place of respite for me, a place to really get into my body, like we were talking about earlier, and be with my friends outside in a really cool spot. So I do hope folks recognize it for that resource and want to connect with it, and we’ll work every day for that to happen.
however long it takes.
Anna Levesque
Yeah. What is the, have y’all been doing water quality testing recently on the French Broad? What is that like?
Anna Alsobrook
We have, yeah, it basically mimics what I’m telling folks. It basically looks the same as it does pre-Helene. So historically when we have a big rain event, we tend to see pollution levels increase. And if you, you know, wait a few hours or a day when it, you know, after rain here, it looks like chocolate milk oftentimes. But once it clears back up, pollution tends to subside.
Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.
Anna Alsobrook
I can go on a whole spiel of more information than you really probably want to know about all that, but we are working. We currently have a public facing recreation monitoring program. And what I mean by that is we take samples all through the summer and we post those results to a website so that people know where it’s safe to go swimming. There’s some drawbacks to that particular site.
in the fact that we have to use a water quality standard that’s meant for folks who want to go swimming. And by that I mean they want to immerse their heads in the water and do laps, that kind of a thing. And that’s not how most people use the French Broad. When most people get in the river, they’re getting in a canoe, they’re getting on a paddle board, a kayak. And so the thresh, the
Anna Levesque
Hmm.
Anna Levesque
Right.
Anna Alsobrook
safe water quality threshold for that is actually much higher and the French broad typically does meet that standard regularly. If we have a rain it might be a different story but so I think there’s you know some education we need to do in the future. We’re gonna hopefully shift away from this old way of portraying the data to a new version of portraying the data so that accurately
Anna Levesque
Hmm.
Anna Alsobrook
reflects how people are using our rivers in the coming season. But I do think we need to educate people on what it means when we say safe to go to the French Broad. And we don’t want to scare people away, but we want to alert them how to keep themselves safe at the same time.
Anna Levesque
Right.
Anna Levesque
Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for sharing that. I actually wasn’t aware that that was the standard. Like I didn’t know that and I’m on the river a lot. So that’s, or around rivers. So that’s really, really important information. And yeah, that would be great for folks to know. And essentially what you’re saying is, is if you were tubing and paddling before Helene, it’s the same.
Anna Alsobrook
And the reason…
Anna Levesque
You know, so.
Jon Stamper
The outbuilders are ready to see people come back. I’m coming from the outbuilding world. I’ve worked along the French Broad River for a really long time. Have helped facilitate thousands and thousands of people to go down the rivers and multiple different types of watercraft. For folks that are coming into the area, if you’re a boater and you bring your own boat, I mean, there’s an incredible amount of boating community around Western North Carolina that could pull you in the right direction. If you’re not already a boater.
Anna Levesque
Yeah.
Jon Stamper
go with a reputable outfitter, but they are most ready to welcome you back out on our rivers. You know, we still have work to do, but that said, you know, Anna and I, didn’t get quite all of it, but I mean, you know, our group paddled the entirety of the French broad earlier in the year. And I think, you know, the takeaway was like, yeah, we’re, ready to, to, get things back up and going. The French broads and economic driver for Western North Carolina creates a lot of jobs, brings a lot of people into the region.
So, you know, I would say that most of the authors are ready to see folks show back up.
Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.
Anna Levesque
Yeah, and it’s so fun and beautiful, regardless of whether you’re on the through town section that’s like mellow and relaxing and beautiful or on section nine, which is one of my favorite. It’s actually probably my favorite run to teach on. I I love teaching folks on section nine. There’s so many different moves, features. Yeah, it’s really great.
Anna Alsobrook
Yeah.
Jon Stamper
It was, we were really, yeah, same. We’re really fortunate that like, you know, the geology of section nine of the French Broad, like really it’s already down to the bedrock there. So it didn’t take a lot out of the main channel. Most of the lines are still very, very similar. You know, a lot of great outfitters are out there. We’re running all summer and you know, there’s still work to do to pick up trash, but it’s really cool to see people back out there running. It’s just an incredible stretch of water.
Anna Alsobrook
It’s my favorite too.
Anna Levesque
Yeah.
Anna Levesque
Right. Yep.
Anna Levesque
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I was very grateful that it didn’t change, you know, hardly at all. So that was fun. And Big Laurel. Big Laurel is also one of my favorites that runs into the French Broad, which was a little crazy that it didn’t even really get that high, which blows my mind. Do you?
Anna Alsobrook
Mm-hmm.
Anna Alsobrook
Yeah.
Jon Stamper
I live on the headwater into the Big Laurel. Yeah, so I live pretty far up into the headwaters of the Big Laurel. And I will say what’s crazy is three or four miles in either direction of us, it’s really bad. But for whatever reason, the Big Laurel watershed just did not receive the rainfall. And in fact, during the hurricane, kind of right after the storm passed, I walked down to the river and you could have convinced me that that was just a normal heavy storm as far as the water level.
Anna Levesque
Yeah.
Jon Stamper
So that was really strange.
Anna Levesque
Right? Yeah. So wild.
Anna, were you gonna say something? Yeah, go for it.
Anna Alsobrook
I went to the Green Race this past Saturday and it was my first time down there since the storm and I had no idea where I was because I didn’t recognize any of it. So yeah, we are pretty fortunate to have most of our rapids look the same.
Anna Levesque
Thanks.
Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah.
Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah, I’m glad you went. We were out of town actually, so I didn’t get to go down in the air. But I was really happy that the rain came for the race and they got to put it on. And again, new era as they’re saying and yeah, I look forward to that. So that’s fun that you went, Anna.
Anna Alsobrook
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was fun to be down there.
Jon Stamper
We had two of our debris team employees that ran, so we were excited. A few of our crew members went out to support them. And I think it’s really cool to see that community come back together.
Anna Levesque
Right on.
Anna Levesque
Yeah, very cool. John, Anna, do you all have a question for me?
Anna Levesque
You don’t have to, I just, I always ask this, okay?
Anna Alsobrook
I do. Okay, two part question. How do you recognize your discomfort zone? And when you recognize it, what’s the next step? Asking for a friend.
Anna Levesque
Okay.
Anna Levesque
Okay. Got it. I recognize my discomfort zone by, I feel resistance. Like resistance, whether it’s a physical, like if I’m on a river that I’m nervous about, I will want to pull into an eddy and like stop and just like, and then.
Jon Stamper
Thank
Anna Levesque
or procrastination. can look like procrastination if it’s like a discomfort with something on the non river side of my business or project. And then how I get through it is, to remind myself that I chose it, that I chose to be there and that if I chose to be there, there was a reason I chose to be there. And, and so.
That helps me because then I find my why. Like if I’m on the river, I’m like, why do I do this to myself? And then I think, well, because you love the people and you feel really good at the end and you feel accomplished and you remind yourself that you can do hard things, that you can be scared and do it anyway and come out the other side. And that motivates me. And then it’s like, I love the feeling of no return when you peel out of the Eddie.
and you’re committed. And so then it’s just looking forward, literally looking forward, my vision. I use vision a lot to like looking where I want to go and locking in on that. So yeah, same thing if it’s like a project that I’m working on and like I’ll procrastinate and then just be like, look, you chose this, like you designed your business this way. So get your butt in gear, you know.
and look at the outcome that you want to create or the outcome for me is being of service to people or sharing conversations like this or making a difference for people. And if I can remember my why, then it’s a lot easier to get in. So that’s my answer today for you, Anna. Thanks for that question.
Anna Alsobrook
like that, yeah. Gives you ownership over it.
Anna Levesque
Yeah, I was right. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Are you all ready for rapid fire?
Anna Alsobrook
Yes.
Anna Levesque
So it’s, yeah, well, this is a tip segment I do on every episode. And there’s two of you, which is great. So we’ll just, you do you have both of you answer. It’s designed to be like one sentence, one word, even whatever short answers. So first question is, what is a morning ritual that sets you up for success?
Jon Stamper
I guess.
Jon Stamper
taking in a view on the drive in, focusing on one, wherever it is, it may not be the same place every day, just looking at one beautiful moment.
Anna Levesque
Mmm.
Anna Levesque
Love it. What about you, Anna?
Anna Alsobrook
I don’t do this every day, but I’m trying to is moving my body somehow, whether that’s like going on a walk or trying to hit the gym or something, going on a run.
Anna Levesque
Yeah, right on. What’s a non-negotiable self-care practice?
Anna Alsobrook
Mine’s the same answer as moving my body somehow. I find I get pretty cranky if I don’t do it.
Anna Levesque
Okay. That’s great. Okay. Got it.
Anna Levesque
Yeah. Right.
Jon Stamper
Yeah, I gotta go with self-care on warming layers in the water. Don’t underestimate the need for more layers.
Anna Levesque
Yeah.
Anna Levesque
Yeah, especially this time of year. It’s awesome. Okay, what motivates you? Like, do you have a favorite motivational quote, book, talk, song, movie? I don’t know. What motivates you?
Anna Alsobrook
Dang, that’s a good question.
Jon Stamper
I think for me right now, it’s just the motivation of just like kind of seeing the rivers back to the way they were before Helene. It’s been really great in the fall. Fall is my favorite time of year. The color out on the rivers right now is just incredible. like that’s my motivator is like restoring these rivers back to the way they were before the storm so that by next fall or the next or however long it takes, eventually there’s going to be a moment where I’m going to hop into a boat and be going down the river and it’s going to be like it’s the way it was before.
Anna Levesque
Mm.
Anna Levesque
Beautiful.
Anna Levesque
Mm. Awesome.
Anna Alsobrook
I love that. I feel motivated by a lot of things, I think. We have an amazing team at Mountain True, and it’s such an honor and pleasure to get to work with some of the best people in this business. I get to learn from them every day. I’m motivated by my river. The French Broad is where I learn to paddle and cut my teeth on white water.
It gives me so much joy that I just get excited about the work that I get to do for it.
Anna Levesque
Yeah, it’s awesome. Okay, what do people get wrong about you?
Anna Alsobrook
You know, I listen to your podcast so I know all of these questions and I should have been prepared.
Anna Levesque
Okay, it’s fine. I like in the moment.
Anna Alsobrook
Okay, good call. I think people might think that I’m quiet or…
reserved because I’m small in stature. I think oftentimes I take in information before I bring out my own ideas and you know I’m not necessarily one to just like be in the middle of the party commanding the orchestra but I want to like get folks input before
Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.
Anna Alsobrook
delving into like, own perspective. So I’m not necessarily shy, but I, you know, like to have my, I just like to give space to others.
Anna Levesque
Yeah, got it. So in other words, don’t anyone underestimate Anna because she’s small. What about you, Stanford?
Jon Stamper
That’s the truth.
Anna Alsobrook
You
Jon Stamper
Yeah, think a lot of people hear that I’m prior military and that I was a Marine, that I’m going to be really kind of a militant outlook on things. That’s not really the case for me. I really, really care about everybody having a seat at the table and being able to voice their opinion. And I think that the best work I do is when I take the most input that I can from others into it.
Anna Levesque
Mm.
Anna Levesque
Mm, love it. Okay, throughout the course of your lives, have you felt like the underdog or the favorite to win?
Anna Alsobrook
underdog.
Anna Levesque
What about you, Stamper?
Jon Stamper
I think at different times it goes different directions, honestly. I think in parts of my life I felt like the underdog and then other times I felt like everything was headed in the right direction. So yeah, I kind of got to go with both on that one. That’s a good question.
Anna Levesque
He
Anna Levesque
Both. Okay. Hard moves in easy water or flooding.
Jon Stamper
Flooding.
Anna Alsobrook
Yeah, I mean, I prefer hard moves and easy water, but I understand the value of flooding.
Anna Levesque
Yeah. Okay, what’s a word that describes your comfort zone?
Anna Alsobrook
Did you say comfort zone?
Anna Levesque
Yeah, comfort zone, like, yeah.
Jon Stamper
The older I get, the more I hope the word that describes it is rational.
Anna Levesque
Rational, okay. That’s interesting. Yeah.
Anna Alsobrook
I like that.
Anna Alsobrook
Mine would be probably cozy.
Anna Levesque
Hmm. Cozy. Got it. Okay. Freedom through discipline or I do what I want.
Anna Alsobrook
I’m a lot of freedom through discipline.
Jon Stamper
Same, yeah, me too.
Anna Levesque
Okay. Yeah. Okay. And then in one word, what do you hope your legacy will be?
Jon Stamper
That’s a good one.
Anna Alsobrook
I know I’m stumped.
Anna Levesque
I know. Don’t worry. Just because you say it on this episode does not mean you can’t change it later.
Anna Alsobrook
yeah.
Anna Levesque
Yeah.
Jon Stamper
I’m gonna go with participative.
Anna Alsobrook
I’ll go with.
Anna Alsobrook
I’ll go with…
Anna Alsobrook
collaborative. I almost just googled what are legacy words.
Anna Levesque
Okay. Love it. Awesome. I was going to say, did you say you were a seven on the Enneagram? Yeah. Do sevens overthink? Is that part of there? Right. Yeah.
Anna Alsobrook
Mm-hmm.
Anna Alsobrook
I think so, yeah. They’re like in the head realm, I don’t know.
Anna Levesque
Okay, what do y’all want to say to our listeners about Mountain True’s work, how they can follow up? Maybe folks want to donate, maybe they want to volunteer. So what’s the best way for folks to get in touch with y’all?
Anna Alsobrook
Yes, please reach out. We have a website, mountintrue.org. We also have a plethora of social media handles you can follow. There’s Instagram, Mountintrue, and French Broad Riverkeeper, and I think there’s still Facebook ones floating around.
Anna Levesque
Great, and I’ll put those in the show notes as well.
Anna Alsobrook
Stanford, I miss anything?
Jon Stamper
I’d add that in the small chance that there’s any landowners in the Western North Carolina area that needs their properties cleaned up or help with their areas alongside small streams, big rivers and everything in between, check out cleanupwncrivers.com and that is going to give them the ability to link up with us to see if we can help them clean up their property at no charge to them.
Anna Alsobrook
Thank you.
Anna Levesque
Mm.
Jon Stamper
beyond that, opportunities.
Anna Levesque
Yeah, okay. Can you say that website one more time?
Jon Stamper
Yep, cleanupwncrivers.com.
Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.
Okay, got it. Thank you all so much for taking the time to be here. Thank you so much for the work that you all are doing. It’s so important. I so appreciate it. And I know paddlers, river, folks who enjoy the river, folks who live alongside the rivers, really appreciate you all. so thank you so much.
Anna Alsobrook
Thank you. It’s been fun.
Jon Stamper
Yeah, thanks for having us on.
Anna Levesque
Yeah, sweet. That’s what I like to hear.
