My guest today, Laura Kurup, is a creative technologist and whitewater instructor from Washington, DC. She discovered whitewater in her 20s and spent several years traveling the country to raise slalom canoe. Then her career took off and paddling took a backseat. For more than 15 years, Laura used tech.
data and AI to transform how the government connects with the public. She served as the chief strategy and innovation officer at the SEC, the chief data and analytics officer at the New York Fed, and advised federal agencies from NASA to the US Forest Service. Her story changed suddenly in 2024 when she was diagnosed with an aggressive form of breast cancer. During treatment, Laura reconnected with her deep desire to spend time on the river.
Laura is certified as an ACA, sorry, Laura certified as an ACA level four canoe, kayak and swift water instructor and dove into teaching and volunteering. Now she's building a life anchored in her passions. Laura is a lead instructor at Paddle Sport Institute in Washington DC with upcoming expeditions on the main salmon and gates of Lodore. Off the water, Laura is launching a creative media studio.
that helps business owners expand their reach through custom websites and cinematic storytelling. Thanks for being here, Laura. I'm excited about our conversation.
Yeah, what an interesting career life so far. So I'm stoked to get into it. So my first question is, when I say discomfort zone, what does that mean to you or what comes up for you?
Yeah, it immediately brings to mind the feeling in my body that I get. And I think for me, like, discomfort zone light is maybe kind of a tightness that I start to get sort of across my chest and across my arms. And I know I'm really in it when it gets into my stomach. Like when I start to get almost like a little bit of nauseous feeling, like that's when I'm right on the edge.
Got it. And how do you, when that, when you start feeling that in your body, what is your first go-to or strategy?
Yeah, so I think there's probably two answers to that. And one is like, what do do in the moment? And then I think where things have gotten really interesting in my life the last few years is like, how do I better prepare for those moments? Like, that's something that's really changed for me. In the moment, I find that like getting into my head and ruminating and analyzing and planning doesn't work. It's very tempting to do that that feels
safe, but grounding myself and that could be noticing my senses, noticing smells, noticing colors, noticing how the boat feels on my body, doing things that are rituals really helps. And so like one thing I do above a really hard rapid, I always splash water on my face. I always splash water on the back of my neck. And I think having that be a ritual is really helpful.
I have a ritual for how I scout rapids. And so I think kind of turning the thinking part of the brain off and getting into the body is the best way to deal with it.
Yeah, thank you for sharing. That is, you know, it reminds me one of my favorite river metaphors is boundaries as riverbanks. So, you know, the riverbanks are what direct the flow of the water downstream. So these rituals, these routines, boundaries form a container that helps to direct the flow of our attention energy focus towards what
is important to us and being focused and running a line that is fun. I was about to say running a successful line, but it's important to not get too attached to that because what is success? There's the styling the line, but then there's also success in messing up the line and having to go to plan B, but then maybe styling that or...
I'm going off in a little bit of a tangent, but this is what's coming up and you as an instructor maybe can relate to this when you have folks who flip over in a rapid and they're like, I flipped. So it was a terrible run. It's like, no, let's be stoked that you flipped. But anyway, that was my little tangent, right? But the ritual back to what you said, the rituals, the container creates a container.
where like you said, we don't have to be making a bunch of different decisions. It's like, okay, this is what we're doing. And then this follows from that. And here we go.
Yeah, I just got back from rowing the Grand Canyon for the first time. And one thing that I switched halfway through the trip that really ended up helping me is early on the trip, I'd scout the rapids and I'm new to rowing. And, the size of the rapids on the Grand can be pretty intimidating coming from East Coast whitewater. And I'd really focus on my line. Like, I'm going to do this move here. I'm going to do this move here. And I'd really try and hold all that in my head. And later in the trip,
I got to the point where like, I could practice those moves with that kind of intellectual intention on smaller rapids. But when I got to the bigger rapids, I just say, all I need to do is be present in my body. All I need to do is like get in the flow and read and run. And I let go of like trying to hold all that in my brain. And my lines got so much better.
Interesting. That's awesome. Yeah, that is it. And what I hear is it takes some letting go.
Right? Because the, I'm going to do this here and this year, that is what I'm hearing is a lot of control, right? And I can relate. And I know a lot of my high performing clients can relate. mean, and I look at your bio, like you obviously are a very high performing person. And I think I've seen a pattern, I'm not saying for everyone, but high performing people tend to want to control a lot. And I think that's one of the
values of activities like whitewater kayaking is that it does require a certain amount of letting go of control and trusting and learning that that can actually be... Well, that's what can lead to flow state, right? That is what can lead to these deep experiences of immersion and that controlling everything keeps you self-conscious in everything you're doing.
Yeah, I think that's right. And that happens in our brain, but in paddling that also happens in our bodies, right? If we're trying to control everything, we stay tight and then that can cause all kinds of issues as we go down the water. If we can relax and be present, then we can have part of our body or our lower body, like loose and reacting and flowing through the water in a way that isn't trying to control every single movement.
and that often has much better outcomes.
Yeah, agreed. So what is your, did you have a journey from, because you just mentioned you had a journey like on the grand. So what did that look like? If you could be a little bit more specific about the shift in your mentality, like did you experience resistance at first? And what was it that had you be like, okay, I'm just gonna, I'm not gonna be so focused on the small details.
That's a really good question.
pause and think for a minute.
Yeah, know, the Grand Canyon was such an interesting experience, right? Because it's a chance to fully unplug and we had 24 days on the trip. And so it felt like it was sort of 24 days of learning and growth that all built on built on itself. And and earlier in the trip, I had some pretty, pretty rough lines. I I think I really put a lot of pressure on myself going into the rapids and I'd have imagined exactly the line that I wanted.
But I wasn't adapting sooner to what was actually happening in the rapid. So like, if there was a rapid where I knew I wanted to get left and I dropped in and that wasn't working, I was still like trying as hard as I could to get back on the line rather than adapting to where my boat happened to be. And I think it took a couple of...
I got stuck in a hole for a while. I think it took a couple of rough rapids to start playing with a different approach.
Yeah, that's really, I mean, what you're saying is an amazing metaphor for life as well of like, sometimes when we are so stuck on a way, the, you know, and then we can't shift or, you know, the other similar is sometimes I'll be wanting to be
I'm going to take the conservative line on this rapid. And then I go so conservative that it actually messes me up. Like I'm so close to shore that then I get stuck on the rocks. And it's the same thing. Like, well, if you had actually just gone down the middle where there's more water, you would have been fine. It would have actually been way more fun and a much better line. But my brain gets so focused on like, avoid that over there. And so,
Same thing when I'm coaching my clients. It's like, okay, let's look at the, let's zoom out and look in reality. And then yes, as we're going down, always adapting. So that is such a golden, I think, life metaphor opportunity.
You know, one thing that that brings to mind for me is I only paddled canoe for 18 years and I love canoe. It's, you know, a single open boat is like the thing that lights up my heart the most. But I think I got this identity. know, canoes aren't as common as kayaks. Women in canoe aren't as common.
And so there's a certain reaction when people see, you know, someone styling a rapid in an open canoe, right? They're like, wow, that's so cool. That's amazing. And so I had in my head that I'm like this, you know, talented, successful open canoeist. And I think I had a lot of resistance to getting back in a kayak or learning to raft because I was going to have to be a beginner all over again. Right. And I resisted that for a long time. And it was my cancer diagnosis that shifted that perspective.
and it's amazing to me how much it's actually fed back in and improved my canoe skills as well. which I think had kind of reached a plateau, because I was holding so tight to this, like, I'm an excellent canoeist. can only do it this way. It, it cracked all that wide open.
Mm. Mm. Yeah, that is, that's awesome.
So tell us what your journey to coming back to being a beginner is, because that is definitely a discomfort. And I think anyone listening can relate. I also, will say...
I have met, is a true discomfort zone to humble ourselves enough to go do something that we're not that great at or that we're learning. And in the instruction space in Whitewater, over the many years, I have seen actually instructors and instructor trainers who,
get so just into their one discipline and don't wanna break out of that. And it is a fear of looking bad. And I get it, right? Cause it's uncomfortable and scary. And it challenges our identity. Like you were saying, your identity as a smooth, really good open-boater. And in my experience, if we can get past that,
and try new things and widen our perspective. Just as you said, it helps your canoeing. I know for myself, when I started down the road of stand up paddle boarding, it has helped my kayaking. Like there's so much that can be applied. And so for someone listening who maybe hears that and is like, that's scary to me. What was your process?
Yeah, I think our growth edge isn't always where we think it is, right? We can be really focused on, want to improve this one skill and I've been trying and drilling and drilling and drilling. And sometimes the thing you need to improve that skill is to go play in an entirely different way and to help your body feel and experience some new things and then return to it. So my process was really the story of my return to Whitewater in general.
Um, I had started getting into whitewater paddling slalom canoe around 2006, 2007. And I was this really driven high performer in all areas of my life. And I think I had this story, which seems a little ridiculous to say out loud, but that like taking time to paddle whitewater was okay as a hobby if.
I was going to win nationals someday if I was going to go to team trials. Like that was the thing that made it acceptable and legitimate and okay to talk to my family about like just having it be a hobby for whatever reason. Wasn't, I couldn't give myself permission to do that. And so my identity as a boater was really tied up in competition and being successful in competition. And then when I shifted my focus to my career, I started paddling just once or twice a year and I
I missed it because paddling was incredible for me for a lot of reasons, but I had this strange relationship to like, what's my relationship to this sport if I'm not competing anymore? And then when I was diagnosed with cancer, it pretty immediately made me take stock of things across my life and led me to a lot of big changes. But one of them was just realizing that my favorite thing is being on the river.
And why the heck am I not on the river every time I can possibly get out there if this is my favorite thing? And so I think my new relationship to the sport is both enjoying and giving myself permission to just boat and enjoy boating, but also now wanting to invite others in and volunteering and working as an instructor. And so with that mindset shift,
rather than being an expert at this one very, very narrow thing that led me to a much more expansive menu of like, well, let's try all these things. Let's play with all these things. It's been a very different way to approach the sport.
Hmm. Yeah, that's and what was the
What was it, was it being faced with your own mortality or was it having your, you know, cause sometimes it can be easy to take our health for granted when it's going well for so many years. So what was it that really had you be like, this is my one and only life and this is, you know, what I love. What was, can you tell us, say more about that moment or moments?
Sure. Yeah, it was being faced with my own mortality. And so I was diagnosed with cancer right after my first mammogram, age 40, had my first mammogram. They told me I get a letter in the mail in a couple of weeks, and they called me few hours later and said, you need to come back right away. And then things happened very quickly.
And the type of breast cancer I was diagnosed with is a very rare, unusual type of breast cancer. And so there's not a lot of studies out there. There's not a lot of data. The prognosis initially wasn't very good. And I think so many of us, even if we think we're not doing this, often imagine the best case scenario for our lives. Like, of course I'm going to be paddling well into my
70s, of course, I'm going to be healthy into my 80s or 90s. And like, we're envisioning that future that we're working toward. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. But having the diagnosis made me realize, you know, if I only had two years, if I only had five years, how would I want to spend them? And I was really shocked that the answer was quite different than what my daily life looked like at the time. So not only did it lead me to returning to Whitewater, it led me to
ending a relationship I had been in for almost five years, it led me to changing my job, it kind of turned everything upside down.
Wow. And it takes a lot of courage. Like talk about discomfort zone. Did that feel, I'm not talking about the cancer diagnosis, but the change, the I'm going to now change all of this because I am clear on my priorities was that part uncomfortable in your discomfort zone.
It was so uncomfortable that it took two years. Like I had these realizations and I didn't roll right out of them and make these changes. It took months of feeling those feelings, talking to my friends, like getting up the courage to say these things out loud, starting to make changes in that direction.
not far enough. It took a long time to work through it.
What helped you along the way? What are some things that you turned to that really were supports for you in creating those changes?
Yeah, therapy has been huge for me. Friendship and community has been huge for me. Learning to be comfortable with visibility has been huge for me. I think for a long time, a lot of my drive to be a high performer
was really coming from imagining this script that I thought would be acceptable to my parents, to my family, to my friends, people I wanted to impress. And it wasn't necessarily me and what I wanted, but I was really focused on achieving this image that I thought would be acceptable and palatable to everyone. And so the change from a life driven by that to a life driven by
what are the things that I want and it's okay to want them just because I want them was a pretty radical shift. speaking things out loud, having them be more visible was a big part of that work.
Yeah, thanks for sharing. It's very powerful what you're sharing. Very, very powerful. how long did it take your family? Did they get on board? So two parts, did your family get on board? And what was it like to get back into the paddling community? Did that feel easeful?
Yeah, I I think my family has always been on board. I think in part, a lot of this ended up being in my head, you know, more than it was pressure that anyone was putting on me externally. But it was a pattern that had worked for me for so long that breaking it was scary. And returning to the paddling community felt wonderful. The river has...
always felt like home. Finding flow state on a rapid has always been as stressful and intense and as much anxiety as I can have in the rest of my life. Flow state in a rapid has always been the like breath of release from that. So it felt really natural coming back to it.
That's great. It's wild. Yes, so many stories can live in our heads. Like we are the most, what I hear you saying, right? Or what I'm, yeah, and reflecting on my own life, like our stories can be so self-limiting. And sometimes it takes something big, you know, like a diagnosis or, you know, I herniated a disc in my back and same thing. It's like, I'm not,
People, like I do all the right things. There's no way this is happening to me at first. And then it's not that I'm comparing the two, like they're not the same, obviously. And it's still a big like identity shift. And these can happen at different levels. So in everyone's life, right? And really...
Do you feel grateful for your diagnosis ever? Like how, yeah.
Yeah, I do. I feel all kinds of things, right? But I think it feels like in my life I was clinging so tightly to things that weren't working for me anymore that my cancer diagnosis was like a big bucket of ice water dumped over my head. And so I'm grateful for the changes I've made since and the perspective it gave me.
Yeah, again, powerful. You don't expect to... And I think sometimes that's not talked about enough that...
Yeah, these really hard things we go through. Everyone, again, it looks different in everyone's life. I also have gratitude for my injury because I'm coming back stronger and more aware. And it helps me to be a better coach, which is a huge passion of mine, helping others. And it's given me so many things to help others. And it could be easy to get into the...
terribleness of it. And at least speaking for myself, that is not productive because it doesn't help to move forward. did you, during the diagnosis and during the treatments, did you have a gratitude practice? Was that something that you were aware of doing or not?
yeah, I think I, I did, but I don't know if it was, I didn't think of it that way, but I, but I think I did. you know, one thing that what you just said brought up as, when you were talking about your injury and how it's actually benefited you in a lot of ways. yeah, I tore my right hamstring a few years ago and it was awful. I couldn't walk.
And it was kind of right on the line where I might've needed surgery or not and ended up just doing physical therapy. And it was a long, slow road. And now my right hamstring is stronger and more flexible than my left hamstring. Right? And I think that can happen with any of these challenges or difficulties. But you also don't get to skip the phase where it's hard and it's difficult and you can't walk, right?
I've ended up in a place with cancer where now I'm grateful now that I see this like two year arc. But there were six months where it was horrible. And I was scared and I was depressed and it was like really difficult to make sense of everything. But I think going through that and feeling those emotions and working through them is what ultimately led me to get to a different place.
And then just the gratitude practice, it, I mean, this almost feels a little cliche, but it was like the whole world all of a sudden became HD. Like seeing flowers bloom in my garden that spring that were perennials that I didn't have to plant and came back on their own, you know, enjoying moments on the river, enjoying moments with my friends. Those things became.
I just exquisite and like, I realized how valuable they were in the context of all that fear and all that medical treatment.
It's beautiful. It's beautiful.
That's such a beautiful mindfulness practice as well. I challenge myself to even without something forcing me to be present, I challenge myself to be present and to practice mindfulness and looking at the beauty, finding the beauty in the quote unquote mundane in walking around the block with my dog and...
you know, what trees, what flowers, what, you know, what birds noticing and also that connection to the natural world, reminding myself that I am nature as well can be such a beautiful practice. And when you said that, it reminded me.
Right. And it's so calming to our nervous systems if we let ourselves be present in it. And it's so easy to go for a walk in my neighborhood and either bring my phone and look at my phone or like start working through my to-do list in my head. And I'm sure there's still benefits to me walking outside, but if I can actually feel my body and observe what's around me, the nervous system benefit that I get from that is just dramatically different. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's what I also recommend for my clients to stop listening to podcasts actually on their walks and to just walk and notice. they, the anecdotally, the, you know, they feel a lot better and a lot more present and more uplifted because everything we take in through our five senses, we have to digest, you know, so.
Yeah. Yeah. Can I share something that discomfort zone brought to mind for me as I was preparing for this conversation with you?
I, you know, one thing I hadn't really thought about this way before, but I now understand when I look back at my past. So I work with a therapist who often talks about our zone of tolerance. So as we experience more and more and more discomfort, there's a zone that we have where we can stay regulated, where we can still perform or we can stay in our bodies. And then there's a threshold where we flip into like,
fight, flight, freeze, where we get really dysregulated. And so a lot of the work that I've done in therapy is like, let's expand this zone. Let's allow my body to feel a wider range of discomfort and still stay within that zone of tolerance. And two big things that I learned about myself that kind of blew my mind. One is I experience a lot of discomfort at
the feelings of safety as well. That if I get into a place where I'm really safe and really relaxed, part of my brain starts thinking, the other shoe's gonna drop, something's wrong, we need to do something, we need to take action. Which is similar, like going on that walk in the neighborhood and like settling into just being present in our body. That caused me discomfort as well that I had to learn to tolerate.
And the other thing that I learned that has taken, I think, years to work through is one thing I learned from my childhood was I don't think I did a good job feeling discomfort on the lower thresholds. I would just ignore it. I was really good at ignoring it. I would just dissociate from those feelings in my body and just perform anyway. And so if I imagine this discomfort scale, it's like...
wouldn't feel anything, wouldn't feel anything, wouldn't feel anything. And then at a certain threshold, it would be like a five alarm fire. And so a lot of my work has been learning to feel and let myself feel discomfort at lower levels so I can practice that as opposed to just ignoring it until it gets to that really intense state.
Please say more, because I would love to hear. So how does that work for you? Really? think this is so, so great.
Yeah, well, so one of the ways that that worked for me, I could give a river example and a work example, but one of the ways that worked for me on the river early on is I put a huge amount of pressure on myself never to flip. And I was training with folks who were
who were much better than me. I started training with the national team, going to camps where I was training with the national team. I felt really new and I didn't want to be the one having a swim. I didn't want to be the one flipping. And so I just put so much pressure on myself. And I think I felt a lot of discomfort about being upside down, about trying certain moves. And I just like totally ignored those feelings, like shoved them into a box, shoved them under the bed and just put pressure on myself to perform.
But not surprisingly, those feelings didn't go away. And eventually I think I hit a point in my paddling, and this is when I shifted to focus more on my career, where I kind of reached a ceiling where not working through those feelings was limiting me, but I was getting really good at ignoring them.
Right, so what I hear you saying, and I don't know if this is true, I just heard this in what you were saying, is that you, because you felt like you hit a ceiling and you were ignoring the feelings that were there of discomfort, it actually had you walk away from paddling to some degree. Yeah.
It did, yeah, because I was able to perform at a high level in the water I was at, but it was limiting me from getting to the next level. And it was also causing me a lot of stress. And so part of what I've come back to doing with paddling, and I'm still working on this, is I know that in a certain rapid...
You know, there's a line that I can execute and execute well. But I am trying to invite myself to play more. I'm trying to invite myself to flip upside down more. I'm trying to invite myself to screw up more and see what happens and accept that. And that's involved like really going back to, think some things I skipped mindset wise early on my paddling career that are at those lower levels of discomfort.
and letting that growth take place on a much easier rapid where I can play around as opposed to pushing myself to doing something new and different on a class four rapid.
Yeah. And do you think that community or the vibe of the community, support of the community is helpful in that because
There's also a piece of if you surround yourself with people who are having those conversations, it's okay to feel, it's okay to flip, it's okay like normalizing that kind of thing. Do you think you would have been able to get out of your own head with that?
Yeah, yeah, I do. Some of the folks I teach with now, they talk about swimming as part of the sport and have moved toward some of the skills that we train to assist boaters on the water, not always being called rescue, but being called an assist or something. Because there's a lot of things we do where it's just part of the sport. And I think early on,
I put so much pressure on myself to not flip and not swim. I taught a beginner kayaking course this past fall with Kaleiwa in DC. They have a great program called the Zero to Hero program, and it's folks that have never boated before, and they do multiple classes together. And we had one student who was fearless about trying anything in the beginning, and he was out of his boat more often than anyone else.
Like on the very first little ferry, he was like, well, but can I try it backwards? Like try to backfair, flipped out of the boat. And by the end of the course, he ended up being by far the strongest paddler because he had been fearless about just trying things and also act like it wasn't a big deal when he flipped and fell out of his boat. As opposed to feeling like really scared of that, really nervous of that.
Well, then you're always picking a safe line and not having those experiences.
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing all of that. I think it's so valuable. I'm in the middle of the eight-week course I teach every January called Mental Agility Mastery. And we've been exploring different facets of mental agility. And one of the participants recently wrote in the group chat, it's amazing how much time
energy, time, and focus, our stories are ignoring discomfort or resisting it creates, you where we're focusing on the resistance rather than focusing on what we, you know, the joy, the path forward. And I've also had some clients who
have paddled for 15, 20 years and they start to lose their role as they get older and maybe their flexibility, they have less flexibility. And when we get to the, I haven't really worked with them for that whole time, but they come to me because they're like, I don't know why my role's not working. And when we get down to the root of it, it's because they never faced the fear that they actually felt and the kind of like,
you know, kind of muscling it up worked for them until it didn't work for their bodies anymore. And now they're again, like you're saying you have that it doesn't go away. It's always there and it's going to come back around for you to face. And the beauty of life is that we all have a different journey. know, part of me sometimes is like, why didn't I face that? Like, or why didn't I pick that up? Or why didn't I do this years ago? But it's cause I wasn't
ready for it. And so the beauty is, it's important to not have regrets, but to when it comes back around, I think then it is an opportunity to face that like you're saying and like you've given the example in your own life. it can, you know, it's what I'm hearing is that you have a lot of joy in having faced it and facing it and coming back to kayaking and helping others.
It's worth it. It's worth the discomfort.
Thanks. It's worth the discomfort. I think another thing that I've realized, your stories around clients that work with you that never really faced the root fear makes a lot of sense. And I think that's some of the work that I had to do as well. And for a long time, that fear drove me to perform really well and to have amazing lines and to not flip. But
it also then limited me once I hit a certain threshold. And for a few years, I do pool sessions all winter long and I'd get a great role in the pool. And then I'd be on a surf wave on a class three rapid and rolling there is such a leap from rolling in the pool that I would then still feel that fear. And so one of the things I've been working on is like, okay, if that's happening, how do we break this into like small bite-sized steps?
And that might be, well, maybe it's just hanging out upside down. Maybe it's, you know, going from the pool to rolling in class two rapids. Maybe it's, you know, making it a game. Maybe it's making it playful. Maybe it's figuring out like what community I need to build around this as opposed to expecting to like just jump right to the most intense version of the skill. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, said. Well said. I have a question for you that is related, I'm curious because in your career, you've worked with AI and AI is exploding right now.
and there's folks that are very concerned about how much water it's using. But then there's, you you can't ignore it. And for the record, I use AI. It's very helpful in time saving in certain circumstances, with certain tasks. So that's one part of my question. What are your thoughts? If you want to share, and it's fine if you don't, but what are your thoughts around that? And then the other question about AI that I have is,
As we get more and more online, there is the, you know, I heard someone, some thought leader saying like, at some point we're gonna be paying people to take walks with us, because we're gonna just be online. And so what are your, I don't know, what are your, so kayaking is great because it's gonna be a while if ever that, maybe that AI could, you know, take someone kayaking.
But what is your, with your experience with AI and because it's such at the forefront right now, what, do have to say about all of that?
Sure. Yeah, I don't have all the answers. It has been fascinating to see how quickly it's evolved in the past couple of years. And it's such a powerful tool for, I think, a variety of situations. I read an article once, that really clicked where they were saying, it's like we've just invented ketchup. And so right now, restaurants are like,
Let's put ketchup in everything. You can have ketchup hot dogs, ketchup waffles, like not everything needs ketchup. So I think right now there's so much excitement about like, let's try applying it to everything when really it doesn't necessarily have the value applied across everything in our lives. So I love it as a tool.
But I try and think about where intentionally am I going to get a lot of unique value out of using this, as opposed to just sprinkling AI across everything. Yeah.
Right. Yeah. Well, and yeah. And then what do you think of the energy? Do you have an opinion on that? The energy usage?
Yeah, the energy usage, I don't know, it's
I think it's one reason to be really intentional about where we want to use it. We also think about this with plastic in my family, right? There are certain things in our lives that plastic is incredible at, and that just would not work or would not function well without plastic. We also know there are all kinds of issues with plastic not really being recycled and microplastics building up. And so I think
balancing those two things of, you know, where are we getting such unique value out of this? And it's so convenient and so uniquely suited to what it can do. It makes sense to use it. But can we cut back in a lot of ways? And so I tend to think about, you know, not only AI, but kind of automation and the internet in the same way of like, where do I really want to use this intentionally as a tool, as opposed to just turning it on everywhere by default?
Right. Well, thanks for weighing in on that little tangent.
Sure. I thought about the plastic thing on the recent Grand Canyon expedition. There's certain things that just having a Ziploc bag is incredible for. And waterproof, like if you have a bandaid and need Tagaderm over it, there's certain things that we just really can't do without plastic. And yet it's like the default for so many things in our lives.
Yeah, we couldn't kayak without plastic. mean, our kayaks, yeah, our boats are plastic. I mean, it's...
We couldn't get our boats, our boats. Right. Yep.
Yeah, it's really nuanced, I think. I think it is something to look at as outdoor enthusiasts because we do use a lot of resources in kayaking, driving plastic, and to be aware of it. And yeah, I don't have all the answers, but being aware of it, think, again, we're talking about
it is uncomfortable to look at, like, you know, in a lot of ways, talking about the discomfort zone of getting real with, yeah, what it takes and what a privilege it is to do what we do. And it's kind of like looking at the fear and it's really easy to not think about and just like, let's just go paddle, you know, I think that it's but it is something to be aware of. And I know I could do a better job always of
keeping that in mind and looking at that. And that's why also so important to support organizations like American Whitewater, you know, for sure.
Yes. And there is a discomfort zone with sort of sitting at that point of wanting to use AI, for example, but also being curious and educating yourself on the water consumption and being curious and educating yourself on the impacts that it's having and holding both of those things.
it can feel far easier to like decide you're gonna be in one camp for the other. Yep.
Right. Yep. Yep, again, yep, I agree. Important to do the research and learn. Yeah. Laura, do you have a question for me?
you just did your a hundred podcast episode, didn't you? Yeah. I, I think the thing I'm curious about is, do you think there are going to be a hundred more and how do you see the podcast changing or evolving as you've had all these conversations?
I did, yes. It was very exciting.
Yeah, that's a great question. I hope so. I hope there's a hundred more because I truly love it. I love having conversations. I love learning. So every conversation is an opportunity to learn and to listen and to meet incredible, incredibly interesting people. And also to explore a topic that has always been very...
that I've always been very passionate about that, especially when I was coming up in the nineties, you we didn't talk about discomfort zone, didn't talk about fear. was like, you know, so I love, and I'm very passionate about changing conversations around things. either within ourselves or about what's possible or culturally, like if we talk about the small whitewater community, like how can we have different conversations about things that are
important, visible, and maybe not as visible. And ultimately to make it more joyful for more people to do the sport and to come into the sport and it be more welcoming. in terms of, I've actually been thinking about this, because I'm like, should I hire a producer? I'm not making money off of this. So don't have sponsors for the podcast.
It's funny because Whitewater community is so small. do have sponsors and I'm so grateful for them and they do support like Women's Paddle Fest, my annual fundraising event. But I would say the Whitewater community is small and I would like to grow beyond. Of course, I've already grown beyond. Like I've had people who are not like into Whitewater, but it's, you know, I love the wider outdoor industry. recently, yeah. So I've been doing different.
interviews with folks. And I would like to expand that reach and for folks in the wider outdoor world to come on the show. I would love psychologists, behavioral psychologists. I think there's a lot of different ways that it, different guests that could come on and really offer value. so, if I could monetize it,
to a certain degree to where it was even paying for itself. That would be really cool. And I'm truly just talking out loud right now. These are like my real thoughts. So I don't know, but I would like to grow it. I'm so grateful for how well it's done coming from a niche community and growing. So yeah, Therony.
podcast producers out there who, you know, I don't know, reach out. I'd be really curious. So I hope, yeah. Obviously I'm not, I don't have my line picked out, Laura, yet. I don't have like, I don't have a like, this is the rapid, this is the next Eddie. I'm in a moment of exploration. And because my main business is coaching,
So my main business is not the podcast. It's just been an amazing thing to start incorporating, but I do love it. So, you know, it would be cool to grow it, continue to grow it.
Yeah. Well, and it's a topic that you could easily have another hundred conversations about, right? It's not, there's, there's always more and more to explore, I think, right on the edge of discomfort and mindfulness.
And every conversation is unique because it also showcases how, and this is what I love, every person is unique. So I can interview a hundred whitewater paddlers, but it's not going to be the same conversation ever. And everyone approaches it differently, which is what I'm out to showcase is that you can show up however you are and have fun and move through your discomfort zone.
Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And the flow. Yeah.
and find the stoke and the flow.
Cool, are you ready for rapid fire?
Okay, so what is your favorite river metaphor?
Favorite river, what's a river metaphor? Give me an example.
Like riverbanks as boundaries. You could say, thanks, yeah. Go with the flow is a very common one. Or now I'm drawing a blank. peeling out of the... It's like, don't sit in the Eddie all day. You to peel out at some point. Take a risk, that kind of thing.
like Riverbanks' boundaries.
Yeah, I like that. I love that one, by the way.
Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I think my favorite one recently is, you know, on the Grand Canyon, you get to the bottom of these rapids and it's really easy to get eddied out and the eddies are huge. So sometimes you get eddied out. It's a long time before you're getting back to the current. And with all of the like helical currents and boils, it can sometimes be really hard to stay in the line.
But you learn to kind of follow this bubble line below the rapids to stay in the current moving forward. And as I've come back from that trip, that's one thing I've been thinking about a lot is like finding the bubble line and staying in the bubble line to keep moving forward.
Hmm. What does the bubble line look like in life? Do you have an example?
I think it goes back to those rituals, but it's like connecting with friends, connecting with community, doing like my morning practice in the morning that I know anchors me, going for walks in my neighborhood, like these things that I know help move me forward. Even when I'm not quite sure where the line is, like I can normally figure out that next step. Yeah.
Yeah, right, right. Awesome. Okay, what's a morning ritual that sets you up for success?
my favorite morning ritual when I make time is like journaling, but just stream of consciousness journaling, like not really trying to narrate, just letting whatever comes out, out. and I love doing that for like 15 minutes. I find that the first like five to seven minutes I get out of everything I want to say, and then there's like this pause. And then that's when the more interesting stuff starts to come up.
So that's my favorite thing when I'm doing that regularly and it really benefits me.
Okay, what's a non-negotiable self-care practice?
It has become not having my phone in the bedroom at night. I've started charging my phone in another room.
Yes, that is huge. Huge. Okay, what motivates you these days?
What motivates me most these days is this idea that I'm giving myself permission to follow my intuition, which was something I didn't do for a long time. I don't even think I could really feel my intuition for a long time. And now I just have made this commitment to myself that I'm going to follow it and see where it leads. And I find that really motivating.
Because you were in really, I have a follow up question to that one. Because your career was in data and technology, do you think that you had a view that like intuition was woo woo? Did that play into it at all? Or was it just a matter of like not feeling it or?
Now, it's really, it's a couple of things. So I'm ADHD and learned to really mask in elementary school. Learned that if I just acted like Laura, that sometimes that was too much for people. And so I learned to really perform a certain role as opposed to just being myself. And I also had some childhood trauma that led to a pretty similar reaction of
it's not always safe to feel my feelings and to do the things I wanna do. It's much more important if I act the way I'm supposed to act. So I'm gonna figure out what that is. Like in social situations, how do I get an A on this test? And then I'm gonna go get an A. And I really, throughout my childhood, practiced cutting myself off from what are the things that I want, what are the things that I desire. And then I got into my 20s and I was like, all right, I'm ready to know what I wanna do with my life. And those feelings like...
really weren't there. I almost imagined there were like inner Loras that were like, we don't trust you with that information yet. And so I had to sort of build this practice slowly over time of getting back in touch with my feelings and my intuition and what I wanted. Because back when I was in those jobs, like it wasn't like I was feeling my intuition and ignoring it for years, I couldn't even feel it.
Right. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. Yeah. What do people get wrong about you?
I think people think I'm extroverted, because I act that way often in social situations. but I once heard the definition of introvert as someone who needs alone time to recharge their batteries. And I was like, that's, that's me. being social is, is wonderful. but it can drain my batteries and I, I.
need the introvert time to recharge. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I can relate to that for sure.
Okay, have throughout the course of your life, have you felt like the underdog or the favorite to win?
I felt like the underdog who for some strange reason everyone else thought was favored to win. And so I had to make sure they never realized that somehow I had snuck in and they had made a mistake. That's how it felt.
Okay. All right. Okay. Hard moves in easy water or flooding.
Definitely hard moves in easy water.
Okay. What's a word that describes your comfort zone?
Okay, freedom through discipline or I do what I want.
Freedom through discipline.
And in one word, what do hope your legacy will be?
Do you have anything else you'd like to share with us and with the listeners?
You know, I think I just want to say about freedom through discipline. That immediately brought to mind about what you said about boundaries as riverbanks. You know, there's such this wonderful gift that we get when we're paddling on the river is like, I know where I'm putting in and I know where I'm taking out. like, that gives the day this structure. And then we get to figure out how we're doing it along the way.
And it's the same thing with river expeditions, right? Like there's a structure to how we're doing every day, both because of safety and leave no trace and all these reasons. And then you get to play within that structure. And that's something that I've found is really helpful and powerful and that I'm trying to bring back to the rest of my life. Because sometimes like a total blank page can be really overwhelming. But if you give it some structure and then know what the play space is, that can...
open up all kinds of things.
Yeah, thank you. Well said. Thanks for sharing that. And thank you so much for being on the show, Laura. I love this conversation. And I hope that we get to paddle together sometime. That would be really fun.
I hope so too. There's definitely a crew of folks that have come to your Women's Paddle Fest many times. And so I'm excited to see if I can join this year.
Yeah, we'd love that. That would be awesome. Yeah. Well, thanks, Laura.
