Anna Levesque
My guest today, John Fern is an adventure performance coach who has worked with thousands of endurance athletes all over the world from Atlantic rowers, from Atlantic rowers to record breaking polar athletes and multiple world endurance mountain bike riders. He’s worked in the endurance and adventure industry for 29 years, starting out as an outdoor education instructor in surf and kayaking and then studied sports science, co-created a university master’s program in athlete development and peak performance.

He runs an endurance coaching business called E3C and his passions include time with family and being in the mountains on skis. Thanks for being here, John.

Jon Fearne
Well, thank you very much for having me, and I’m really looking forward to chatting.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, so am I because you’ve accomplished so much and you’ve coached so many folks who have accomplished so much. And so my question that I start out with for everyone is when I say discomfort zone, what does that mean to you? What comes up for you?

Jon Fearne
Oddly it would be being in a city environment surrounded by lots and lots of people and not being able to escape is absolutely my discomfort.

Anna Levesque
Yes, oh my gosh, you know what? No one has said that, but I totally agree. I mean, there’s things that I love about the city, but honestly, it’s not really my jam either.

Jon Fearne
But, but, yeah, I do get what you mean. You’re aiming more obviously for the, for the, the wild element. And I guess to reverse kind of like what I said is, is you go looking for the discomfort that you’re comfortable with in a way, which is cold, remote, solo sometimes with somebody, an environment which is a little bit inhospitable where things become very basic and very simple. And I guess that is.

It is a discomfort, but it’s also kind of a security blanket comfort as well.

Anna Levesque
Well, and what you’re pointing to as well is as a coach, right, it’s important to place people in an environment where they’re not comfortable, but they’re not in survival mode, right? Because that’s where the learning happens is in that, at that edge, in that discomfort zone, but it can’t be too much, it can’t be too little.

I think that’s what I heard also in what you’re saying. And that all depends on the person also. Yeah.

Jon Fearne
Yeah, definitely. I think it’s one of the fun elements of writing plans for people and coaching is you have to create things that are actually going to push people. You’ve got to get them out of that comfort zone. For me, one of my major goals is to make sure that they’re ready to deal with whatever can be thrown at them from the environment in which they’re going to. So yeah, you have to get creative and you have to play around with some different sessions, things that are going to make them feel quite uncomfortable.

Play some psychological games with them. But it’s super important as you know that when you’re in the real situation, nothing kind of phases you so much and that you can manage it because panic causes more problems. So yeah, I always think it’s a little bit maybe sadistic, but it’s good fun creating those.

Anna Levesque
And so do you create plans also that push people over the edge and then kind of bring it back? Because that’s kind of what I’m hearing too. So you’re prepping them to deal with whatever comes their way. So I guess I have a twofold question. How have you developed that for yourself? And I also hear a lot of nervous, you know, not wanting to go into panic, so nervous system regulation. So I’m curious, one.

You, John, as the person, as the adventurer, how have you developed that for yourself? And then two, how do you develop that with and for your athletes?

Jon Fearne
Okay, so starting with myself personally, I’ve been really lucky to go out with people that are way, way better and more confident than I am. And they have taken me onto things that I wouldn’t dream of taking myself onto. And so that has taken me right out of my comfort zone, especially Alpine Mountaineering. I’ve done several routes around the Chamonix Valley with people that, yeah, I’ve kind of like been blown away when I’ve got back that I’ve managed to get through it. You know, that kind of like, wow, did I just actually get through that?

And then obviously you grow and for then me personally going back out into the environment, I may not go that extreme, but I then feel a lot more comfortable in my own sort of level of environment that I would go into. So that’s how I’ve definitely dealt with it, by always going with people that are way more confident, whether they’re high mountain guides or just great athletes in the mountains, spend time with them and they’ve got to be, again, it’s that trust element. You’ve got to trust that person you’re with, you know.

Knowing that their skills are there and that they’re going to manage everything that gets thrown at you. So yeah, that’s for me personally. Things that I create are possibly a little less extreme, especially for the polar people, because it’s quite hard to replicate. Lots of freezing temperature drills where they’re actually plunged into really, really cold water and then having to come out and build a camp, set a stove, all things so they know what it feels like to be that cold and that dysfunctional whilst trying to function. That’s probably one of the major ones that I like to do is make them really, really cold.

So, you know, that feeling where your hands aren’t from paddling again in cold water and you’re trying to do a buoyancy aid up or undo it and your hands like they’re not working. So trying to create that as much as possible. So it takes away that shock element.

Anna Levesque
And when you’re doing that, do you have, I mean, I think of, you know, in kayaking, we say practicing hard moves in easy water. So when you’re doing, what does that look like? Are you in the environment? Are you, do you have a cold plunge where, you know, if something does go sideways, it’s very easy to warm them up? I’m very curious because I have no experience with polar expeditions and it’s fascinating and amazing.

Jon Fearne
So you start out really basically, they can be in a home environment. They could be having a plunge pool at their home. They could have created one in their own bathroom. They could be setting up stoves in their lounge after they’ve come out of the bath. So there’s family and there’s people around. You then take it out into, could be a local cold river, something that’s not too far away, but they go with somebody and then it progresses. And then they obviously, they go on certain training breaks that they have to go to in Norway and different places, which is super cold or American Minnesota and places where they have their polar explorers do a lot of their training over there. And then they’re more in that environment, but they’re still around people. You’d never really sort of put yourself in that place. You’re kind of trying to avoid it when you’re in the real environment, because you don’t want to get to that point. It’s kind of like teaching them to be like, if this does happen, worst case, you’re going to be okay.

You don’t need to panic. You work your way through it. So I don’t think any of them have ever tried it in Antarctica or the North Pole again, very different because there’s so much water there and there is a likelihood that you will be in the water, but you’re wearing different clothing. So yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, I can imagine that. Well, is being solo, because you’re talking about, you know, they’re practicing at first with people being around, which I picked up, I could be wrong that that could be a comfort for them. But then practicing, how do you prepare to be solo and deal with like your own thoughts?

Self doubt, because if you’re alone, you have no one. And I actually, now that I’m hearing myself ask this question, you know, sometimes our own minds can be our worst enemy. And so, what’s the preparation there to like, whether it’s turning off your brain or having strategies to not buy into self doubt or the panic that might arise?

Jon Fearne
Absolutely.

It’s so the training process with say a solo South Pole, it’s a long one. So, for Monet Isabeth, who’s just completed the first American to ski to the South Pole, female American ski to the South Pole, she took 57 days, but she’s been on a two year training journey. And for me, when you’re building plans, you’re trying to put as much specificity in there that can be relatable, even though they’re not in the environment, there’s things that they’re thinking about visualization, behavior patterns.

Doing things by themselves, trying to put themselves into a position and understand how they would react and spending time with themselves because we don’t all like spending time with ourselves. Sometimes it can be a really negative space to be in. And like you say, if you’re suddenly thrown into this white landscape with nothing to look at other than the inside of a ping pong ball for two months, it’s tough. You’ve got good selection of podcasts, good selections of books.

Things like this help people keep going. But I won’t lie, a lot of people and they’ll admit it themselves, they can be crying nearly every morning before they get out of that tent. But once they step out of the tent, it’s like a business as usual. It’s kind of like, at least for three of the people I’ve worked with, it’s been like a safe zone to break down. Once you’ve got that tent up, it doesn’t matter what’s going on outside, you can just let it all out. But come morning,

That process, as we will discuss more of, is that you can lean into is a routine and a practice routine that it’s just, I call it kind of monotonous and a bit of a trudge, but you just get into that. And that’s what you do for the next 11, 12 hours until you have your little breakdown again in the tent and then you pull yourself back together. It’s a very individual space. I think we all act very, very differently to these kinds of stressful situations.

Some people have great ways to shut their brains down. Other people, their brains become super active. So you’ve got to find ways, coping mechanisms to manage whatever kind of style they have with their thought processes.

Anna Levesque
And it sounds like routine, like you mentioned, is a big part of that, of having, this is just what I do when I wake up. I do this, this and this. What does a routine look like, a morning routine? What could one look like when you’re on an expedition?

Jon Fearne
It could be melting water for the day plus for your dehydrated food. Your routine would have been obviously the night before is that everything is set where you need it to be so you don’t really have to think. It’s removing the thinking. So your pulks or your sleds, whether it’s a single pulk or a double, you know exactly where every single piece of kit is because thinking again, it uses energy and it can become stressful if

The stove isn’t where you think it is and it’s minus 40 and blowing a gale and you’ve only just managed to get your tent up and you’ve been skiing for 11 hours. That stress is huge and that’s what can create a mental breakdown much quicker than anything else will. I always say to people I work with it’s these little nuances that can stack up that will fail your expedition. Nothing big. It’ll be an accumulation of micro things that happen. So that routine

Is just dialed, you know, and they practice this through visualization, they practice this on dry land, they’re practicing it in their living rooms. It’s just got to become second nature that you pack down that sleeping bag, your layers are on, your food’s melting, you’ve dug out, you’ve got water, your sled’s packed tents away and that’s it and you’re off. And maybe they’re on a 10 minute break every 50 minutes, depending on what their plan is for getting to the pole. And that’s just your routine.

And I do say to people, honestly, it’s monotonous. Sometimes there’s not a lot to look at. At least if you’re in a team, then you’re looking at the person’s skis in front of you, but they don’t have that. So yeah, it’s a tough one to keep the mind focused on the job in hand.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. It’s so much, well, one, it’s not trendy, it’s not sexy. I think on some of your, I’ve watched some of your Instagram reels about like stop looking, and you say stop looking for shortcuts. And I find that in my coaching as well. I use whitewater kayaking as a vehicle for life coaching. I can’t stand that term, but I haven’t found there’s a better one yet. But it’s so true in daily life. If you want to be confident on the river, having that routine and like you said, and I don’t know that I’ve really framed it this way, but it’s so true. It just takes away the mental energy.

Yesterday, I went out stand up paddle boarding. I do like some attainments up river once the weather gets nicer. And I hadn’t done it in three months because the weather hasn’t been nice.

And it was such mental energy to like, okay, I have to move this out of the way and this out of the way to get to my board, you know, and like my racks weren’t ready, but that is all. And it almost made me wanna be like, is this worth it? Which is so silly, cause it’s not that hard, but just that extra mental energy. Whereas when I’m in the groove and it’s same thing with my kayaks, when everything’s out in the garage, like where I see it, where it normally is, I know where to grab it, get it in.

You know, and then same thing for just life, getting to the office. I do the, and when, and I call it like the container, like river banks, the river exists only because of the banks directing the flow. And so that container is so important. And I find that my clients who struggle the most have the most resistance to setting that container because it’s not, sometimes it feels hard.

It’s not like the cool thing to do. There’s nothing like glamorous about waking up and doing the same things over and over. So, and I just, but I just love what you’re saying and to put it in the context that you’re putting it in with these huge expeditions just I think is a really cool framing and perspective.

Jon Fearne
Yeah, it’s, it’s, you’re absolutely right. Life is the same way. And I think we’re living in this world where media is just putting in front of us that it’s all wonderful and it’s like, but it’s not, you know, there’s fleeting moments where it’s wonderful. I don’t know if we all do it necessarily for those wonderful, wonderful moments. Sometimes I think we’re doing it for the fact that it’s hard work. But yeah, it’s your day to day practices. Everyone, like you say, they think it’s boring to have a set routine, but actually it gives you greater flexibility as an individual and it allows you to cope with things that are coming at you day to day.

It’s the not having anything set that spins us out because then our brain isn’t in a particular routine or a pattern and something else comes along, you’re just still in a spin. But if you’re in a set routine, you’re like, well, once this is done, then I will get to that. But yeah, people just see it as boring and they don’t want to do that.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, I hear you. But it’s not boring. Everyone listening, it’s not boring. It will, like you said, it leads to those amazing moments. I do think, I know sometimes I think about that because running a really fun rapid is 10 seconds. I mean, for the longer ones, yes, you can get to like a minute, but it is very, these short moments or just even on skis, I love.

I grew up alpine ski racing. I do love powder, but I love groomers. I do. Some people make fun of me, but I love carving. And sometimes you just do like a couple of turns that just feel so good in a whole run and you just live for those moments. And I do think life is like that though. We’re not always like, and that’s the thing is to not be too attached to the high moments.

And also not be too averse to the low moments, because otherwise you’re on a roller coaster. And to really appreciate, and I think that that’s one of the points is can you appreciate the mundane? Can you find the joy in the mundane? And to me, that makes life so much more interesting and joyful.

Jon Fearne
Definitely. I mean, it’s when you think of like an expedition or going on a big paddle, that expedition comes and goes, but the journey you’re on to get there is what you’re living every single day. So you need to find the value in that and you need to put the work in during that because that’s the real value. It’s what’s getting you to that singular moment of, wow, you’ve got this whole massive period. Like again, Monet was two years for 57 days. Well, longest period’s the two years, so you’ve got to make sure that what you’re doing in those two years is right.

Yeah it may be monotonous but you can find the joy in that definitely.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What have you learned about yourself from putting yourself in the discomfort zone over and over?

Jon Fearne
The more that I do it, the more it teaches me that that’s just what I love and that’s who I am and that’s kind of like where I want to be. I mean, being honest, living in the south of England at the moment, which is the most densely populated area of the United Kingdom, I just, yeah, it kind of creates a little bit of a panic and it makes you realize that this is the sort of person you are, this is what you value. I guess it comes back to what we learn, what we value as individuals. And for me is space and time to not be extreme but just to go into the mountains preferably on skis make my way up something and slide back down it and yeah it’s just taught me taught me in a bad way maybe as my wife will say that I need to be more patient with people but yeah I think the soloing mindset kind of doesn’t always work with that.

Anna Levesque
Right, that’s, yeah, that’s interesting. That is interesting. When you… So what I hear is like when you go out too, it’s a bit of a, I don’t know if it’s escape, but a time where you don’t have to kind of deal with other people. So, yeah.

Jon Fearne
Yeah, I think when you work in what is your passion, similar with yourself, you kind of need to have an element of it that’s yours. And for me, those moments where I just go out and again, for me, if the weather is absolutely disgusting and other people aren’t going out, then that’s great because I will definitely go out. Obviously, as long as it’s safe, like dangerous, so to speak.

But yeah, that’s, it is an escape. But it’s also the finding of yourself again, which brings you back that ability to cope with the elements of life that aren’t your favorite. You know, you come back from it being able to cope with other situations because I guess cliche, but you’ve recharged the battery and you’re ready to go again.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. There is something you just said. Just give me a moment about going out solo.

Recharge. Ugh, just, I am missing it.

Maybe it’ll come back to me.

Sorry, it’ll come, hopefully it’ll come back to me. There’s something about going out and, when you were saying like, you’ll go out when the weather is like crappy and no one else will, I can’t say that I’m always like that. And I do know that there’s been several times in my life where the weather isn’t perfect or what is perfection, but isn’t great.

Or people say like, the river level is not that good. And some people won’t go because they are like, it’s not the best. And I’ll go out and have so much fun. Or I’ll go out and then the weather clears and you’re there and you end up having a great day. So that’s the other thing I think that applies to life as well is we can’t just do it and expect

If we only do it when it’s the best weather or the best river level, then we’re potentially missing out on a lot of amazing opportunities and amazing days out there.

Jon Fearne
Yeah.

Yeah, I think you’re setting yourself up slightly to fail as well because you know, life isn’t like that. Adventure isn’t like it for sure. And if you’re only looking for those beautiful days, those bluebird days, then you miss, like you say, you’re missing out on an awful lot. It’s quite funny where we lived in Scotland, our local Nevis range. We have the gondola there and I know the guy that runs the mountain really well. And I’d be going up in my skis and he’d be like, are you really going up? And I’d be like, yeah.

But there’s so much ice. I’d go, well, it’s a great place to practice crossing a traverse on ice. You know, if that’s all I do today, I’ve had a great time because I’ve practiced that skill, whereas other people will be at home looking out the window and going, no, it’s not perfect. I’m not going out. So there’s so much that you can actually do when it’s bad. And I think again, that links in with the coaching idea of people have got to get out.

It’s a simple one is if it’s really blowing a gale and pouring with rain, go outside and put your raincoat on and off 20 times. See if you can do it in the wind. You know, because it’s inevitable that on an expedition at some point, you’re going to have to manage your jacket or your layers in horrendous weather. So just go stand in your garden and do it. I did a run across Iceland a while back, which actually failed. But one of the people I was with, I saw her video she put out of her in a garden with her bivvy tent setting up in the most horrendous storm. And I was just like, well, go you.

Because you just know what you’re going to get. So yeah, it’s good practice.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. So two questions from that. One is, what does failure mean to you and how do you approach it? And one thing I don’t want to miss, so this is for a little bit later, I’d also like to hear, because I know you’ve worked with Atlantic rowers, so I’d love to hear a little bit of what prep looks like for that, like being on the water for like ever. But first I want to hear, because you mentioned that

An expedition failed? Like, what does that mean? How do you approach that? How do you recover? What does that look like?

Jon Fearne
Well, I think the first thing we need to do about failure is be honest is yet it does, it sucks. I know everyone wants to say we learn, we learn and we do a hundred percent, but you’ve got to initially allow yourself that moment of man, that sucked. You know, why did this go wrong? What an absolute pain. You know, allow yourself that moment. Don’t kid yourself because we’re all human beings and failing does suck, but we learn and we grow and then we apply and we move forwards.

So for me, Iceland was, it was a huge frustration. There’d been a lot of work gone into it. We’d given ourselves way too short a window to accomplish what we wanted to accomplish. I would say personally, fitness wasn’t as good as it could have been to maybe deal with some of the issues. So kind of couldn’t muscle through. So there was a lot of self-reflection that I needed to do. And then there was the dynamic that the three of us went in.

We went as three individuals and we should have gone as a team, which was the biggest sort of thing. But all of these things have been learnt and we were trying to prove something because it hadn’t been done the way we were trying to do it. And I still believe it can be done that way, but we failed. Yeah, run from the north of Iceland, a place called Akureyri, all the way down to the south of Iceland.

There’s a race that covers it, but they cover it over 10 or 12 days. It’s like a marathon a day with a rest day in between. And it’s really expensive. And I love Iceland, like backcountry ski there a lot. I love the Icelandic people. And I just thought, I think this could be done a lot cheaper. And we definitely got the cost way, way down, but we actually had, there was going to be a two day storm when we were on the plateau and we had to make the decision of

If we get up there and we’re held down by two days, have we got the ability to get through the other side of it or do we need to turn tail? And I made the call to say we need to turn tail because it just wasn’t working right. And also I’m a great believer in if you are aware of a situation, you don’t rely on rescue services. If you know that going forward is going to mean that you would have to utilize a rescue service, then that’s not fair on the rescue service. If you’ve got the knowledge and the information to hand to make the decision to stop early, retract under your own steam, why drag those people out of their beds from their families etc just because you made a selfish move.

So yeah I called it after a day and a half and we were on for a six day crossing so it’s quite early but luckily for us the storm did come in and everybody that — it’s great — it’s reaffirmed when the locals start to say to you wow you made the right decision and you’re like okay that’s easing my failure and my dented ego and all of those kind of things because you’re hearing locals say it.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. And then how do you work through that, you know, the sinking feeling of failure? You know, of course it’s right now. The Olympics, Winter Olympics are on and I love the Winter Olympics. And it’s always a, you know, there’s always a lot of joy in the high moments and you see folks fail. And I agree with you. There’s been like the Norwegian skiing in Slalom, because of course I was watching Slalom in the men’s slalom.

He straddled a gate and went out and I think his grandfather passed away at the beginning of the Olympics. And so, he threw his poles and like walked across and like went and laid down in the snow and all the cameras are on him. And I’m like, maybe we should just let him be and do his thing. And it’s hard cause some people really value sportsmanship as well. And it’s okay to have that

To deal with that frustration, as you said in the beginning, and then come back around. Same thing with the American figure skater, Ilya. Same thing at first. He was dealing with that frustration. We could hear him talking and then he pulled himself together. And that’s tough. I mean, I can’t imagine at the Olympics — I’m not an Olympian, but I have competed at the world championships and I know what it’s like to have a performance fall apart at that level.

So, but how do you deal with that sinking feeling and like, what is your outlet? If you’re willing to share, like what do you do? It might not be pretty, but what do you do and then pull yourself together?

Jon Fearne
I will wallow, I’ll get pretty low if something’s happened and I’m not immediately seeing an answer to it. And again, with my meter, I’ll always try and be honest because these things people need to hear, you know, because it’s not always rainbows and unicorns, et cetera. Yeah, so I will wallow and I’ll get pretty down. And normally some kind of a physical activity will trigger an uplift. But I don’t really know a timeline on how long that can take.

I could be pretty down about something for a week but it wouldn’t normally go beyond a week because I’d have done something physical that would have hopefully triggered it a bit of a lift again and once you start that little bit of a lift you get that feeling and it kind of creates that not everything’s lost okay and then I try to keep a gratitude book so I’ll make sure I’m filling that out and start to list the things that actually look you’ve still got this this this and this and

It comes back to those things of, I can’t really say, was it, Mark Manson’s book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving A — is starting to realize what you should be caring about and what you shouldn’t be. And after that sort of a process, it kind of balances itself back out and you get back on the wagon and off you go again.

But I think like for everybody out there, it’s not easy. There’s necessarily not really quick fixes to these things. We have to go through these cycles and realize that it doesn’t mean we’re broken. It’s just part of our cycle. You know, there’s highs, there’s lows. We hit those lows. We have to start to build our way back out of them, but not be afraid of them and not be told that it’s the end of the world because of it.

I’m a great believer that more people with a social media presence should be sort of saying more about these elements that they go through. I mean, I know people that I work with that go through some of these things and they won’t share these parts. It’s kind of like well, you could help somebody. You could really help someone, you know. Seeing you on the top of that beautiful summit, that may have actually set barriers to people because they don’t think they could ever achieve that.

But if you showed them that lowest ebb and how you dealt with it, someone’s going to connect to that. But it’s each individual’s choice as to what they share.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. It’s important to share all of it. And getting to the Atlantic rowers. So tell us what that looks like, because I’m curious.

Jon Fearne
Yeah, so they don’t get to spend as much time on the water as they’d like. Again, it comes back to what their profession is, what their sponsorship deal is, so they’ll get more time on the water if they have an awful lot of money and raising the sponsorship and working for a living isn’t a part of what they do. Those kind of people will spend a lot more time rowing actually out onto the boats.

As for the others, there’s a lot of ergs, concept rowers and different machines that they’ll be using and masses of visualization very much like the polar setup. One of them is they will have their erg setup in a room and they will have mapped out their boat around it and you get them to do specific drills requiring them to go and get specific items etc. You can have the lights off in the room as well and so they’re just wearing their red headlamp.

You just start to mimic as many dreadful situations as you possibly can. But it’s harder to do than Antarctica because Antarctica is a lot more predictable. Yeah, you have strong winds and cold temperatures. You’ll have sastrugi to get over. Crevasse wise, it is a risk, but ALE that obviously organize all of these things at the South Pole, they make sure that mapping routes avoid as much crevasse area as possible so that’s kind of removed as a risk.

Whereas the ocean just depends on her as to what she decides to do on that day or even from minute to minute at times. So you’ve got to be super adaptable ready to deal with whatever comes at you but then to be able to very quickly move beyond that.

I guess very similar in yourself with paddling white water — it can be one minute absolutely hell for leather panic to absolute calm, serene, right, get yourself back together again because in another minute it could be the other way again. So there’s a lot of just trying to create things as much as possible that they can visualize and practice with within a totally different environment.

Anna Levesque
Hmm. Yeah, and are we talking about that they’re crossing the Atlantic or are they circumnavigating — crossing? Yeah.

Jon Fearne
Yeah no so the people I’ve worked with do the Talisker race which is the Atlantic crossing so just across, yeah. And it’s, I think at the middle point of the row they’re closer to the moon than they are to land.

Anna Levesque
Wow, that’s wild.

Jon Fearne
I think that’s correct. Maybe don’t quote me on that one. It depends. It’s similar again to a polar crossing. If you’re going quick, 30 plus days, going slower, 50, 60.

Anna Levesque
Wow. Yeah, and then you’re dealing.

Jon Fearne
Yeah, and again, conditions dictate obviously as well.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. And kind of the opposite. Well, I guess you could be dealing with cold as well. I imagine there’s a lot of heat as well that you’re dealing with and hydration in both.

Jon Fearne
Hydration, yeah. And equipment, so much more reliability on equipment. Desalinization, making sure you’ve got your water. Because they all have a ballast of water. But if you use that, then you actually get time penalties added on. But it’s there as an emergency kind of backup.

And things do break. Things do get lost. You have spare oars. Things get broken. Boats get capsized. And if you’ve left a door open, then you’re going to lose kit. And it comes back to this leaning into routine and process. This is where people sort of say to me like you work with all of these different adventure scenarios and go yeah but the psychology is so similar.

You’ve got a process, you’ve got a routine, you practice it and you get it right and then you can trust in that. And that goes from a rower to a solo pole skier to an 8000 meter peak summiter. All of these things have routines built around them that if you lock into, they will get you through.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah, to like people just living life as well can be so helpful.

You’ve mentioned the cost of doing some of these expeditions. And I also saw on one of your Instagram reels where you were talking about how one of the hardest things about prepping is sponsors and fundraising.

And yeah, it’s true just from, I mean, I think, and the kayaking world is so, so small compared to mountaineering. So I, you know, I’ve had sponsors my whole career and still do, I’m very grateful for them. And so I, you know, have been doing that, not for necessarily big expeditions was in the past when I was more at my peak, but now it’s more for events and projects and all that to say it does take up a lot. It does take up a lot of mental energy.

And it’s a privilege for sure. It’s a privilege and a choice. And you mentioned that in your reel. So this is kind of a — I’m curious your take on it because yeah, those of us who love…

There’s been, I follow some business thought leaders on social media and lately I’ve just heard a lot of following your passion is terrible advice, do something to help people. And I’ve been contemplating that because well, if I hadn’t have followed my passion, at one point all I wanted to do was kayak. That was what I wanted to do.

After university, I was like, I want to raft guide and kayak. And without that, I wouldn’t be doing, I wouldn’t have this podcast. And from the messages I get, this podcast does help people and the work that I do does help people. So it’s a big privilege and I do believe in following your passion if it’s really calling to you.

And with the world as it is, it seems so chaotic. It does seem like an extreme privilege to be like asking for money to be doing these expeditions. And some people might say, well, it’s selfish to follow your passion. Again, you just don’t know what’s going to happen.

What’s your take on it? This is kind of a deep question, but if you’re willing to go there, I’m curious what your take is.

Jon Fearne
Yeah, it is a deep one. And I think it’s contextual, right? I think following your passion blindly without awareness of responsibility, impact, or sustainability can be problematic. But I also think ignoring your passion completely is equally problematic.

If we didn’t have people following their passion, we wouldn’t have innovation, exploration, art, science — we wouldn’t have most of the things that inspire us. The key for me is intention. Why are you doing it? If it’s purely ego driven, then that’s where it can get murky. But if it’s aligned with something deeper — growth, contribution, curiosity, service — then I don’t see that as selfish.

And yes, expeditions cost money. They require sponsorship. But they also inspire people. They push human understanding. They create stories. They often raise money for charities. And they test limits in ways that move industries forward. That’s not nothing.

I think the danger is when we romanticize it and pretend it’s all glory. It’s not. It’s hard. It’s draining. Fundraising is exhausting. You’re constantly justifying why someone should give you money to go and do something extreme. That can wear people down more than the physical training sometimes.

But again, that’s part of the process. It forces you to clarify your message. It forces you to understand why you’re doing it. It forces you to communicate impact. And those are valuable skills.

So I don’t think it’s selfish to follow your passion. I think it becomes selfish if you refuse to acknowledge the broader context or if you expect the world to just fund your dream without offering value back. But when there’s reciprocity — inspiration, education, charity, pushing boundaries — then I think it has a place.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Reciprocity. I love that word. Because I think that’s what nature teaches us too, right? It’s not just take. It’s give and receive. And I think when we’re in alignment with that, it feels different.

And I also think there’s something about modeling courage. When someone watches someone else pursue something that matters deeply to them — even if it’s not their thing — it gives permission.

Jon Fearne
Absolutely. It gives permission. And I think that’s a big part of it. A lot of people won’t ever row an ocean or ski to the South Pole. But maybe they’ll start a business. Or leave a job that doesn’t fit. Or have a hard conversation. And if watching someone do something uncomfortable gives them that nudge, then there’s value in it.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Okay, last question. If someone listening feels stuck — whether it’s in life, sport, work — and they know they need to step into some kind of discomfort, but they’re hesitating, what would you say to them?

Jon Fearne
I would say start smaller than you think you need to.

People often look at the summit or the ocean crossing or the South Pole and think that’s the leap. It’s not. The leap is tiny. It’s sending the email. It’s having the conversation. It’s putting your trainers on and stepping outside for five minutes.

We build confidence backwards sometimes. We think confidence comes first and then we act. But confidence comes from preparation and repetition. It comes from routine. It comes from doing the small, boring, consistent things.

So don’t wait for perfect conditions. They don’t exist. Start with something controllable. Build the routine. Reduce the noise. And then when the bigger wave comes, you’re more ready than you think.

Anna Levesque
Confidence comes from preparation. I love that. And preparation happens in the mundane.

Jon Fearne
Exactly.

Anna Levesque
Jon, thank you so much. This was such a rich conversation. I really appreciate your time and your honesty.

Jon Fearne
Thank you. I’ve really enjoyed it.

Anna Levesque
And to everyone listening — go practice the boring stuff. That’s where the magic is.