Anna
My guest today, Ottilie Robinson Shaw, is a six-time freestyle kayak and squirt boat world champion from England, who holds the world record for the highest competition ride performed in kayak and canoe freestyle. Over the past five years, she has pushed the women’s sport to an entirely new level and is now on a very determined mission to see whether she can surpass the top men. Audie, I’m really excited to have you here. Welcome.

Ottilie
Thank you for having me here.

Anna
So I like to start out with a question that is, when I say discomfort zone, what do you think about or what do you feel? What comes up for you?

Ottilie
I’d say for me a discomfort zone would be like understanding kind of where your comfort levels are and recognizing that you’re perhaps uncomfortable in a situation or with something going on and then working out whether you can actually push through that or whether it’s for safety reasons or whatever you need to you know recognize that it’s out of your comfort zone.

Anna
What I hear you saying in that is cultivating self-awareness for when you are in your discomfort zone. Am I on the right track there?

Ottilie
Exactly, yeah. I think it’s really important in order to be successful that sometimes you have to be really mindful and aware of how you feel and sometimes it can be quite brutal and you need to be honest with yourself and ask, know, am I in a situation that makes me uncomfortable and is that level of uncomfortable going to cause me real risk and danger to my life or is it something I can work through?

Anna
Hmm. And how have you, well, I guess two questions. How do you discern between the two for yourself? Like what’s your process and how have you built up the awareness to even know that you’re there?

Yeah, yeah, my question is, like how, what is your process for, yeah, understanding whether it is a discomfort that’s, you you want to push through or whether it’s something that you want to, let’s say, walk away from for that day.

Ottilie
I’ve read some quite cool sports psychology books that are all about like risk in adventure sports and you know freestyle I think is quite a safe sport but you know when you dabble more with creek boating or say you’re into powder skiing or mountain biking or something with a bit more risk it’s important to kind of understand what your brain is doing in different situations and your brain will react to something scary, whether it’s going to kill you or not. sometimes you need to take a step back. I can’t remember the exact terminology they use in the book, but you need to take a step back and assess, is this actually threatening to my life or is it just threatening to my ego or those kind of things? And just take an honest look at yourself in the mirror and you…

I think honesty is the best policy with everything, but especially when there’s something risky and you’ve got to decide if that’s something you want to push through or not.

Anna
Yeah. Have you, what does it look like? Because I totally get what you’re saying. Like, is it a risk to your ego? So

What, when you feel like it’s a risk to your ego, what does that look like? Like, do you have an experience of that?

Ottilie
I used to be really afraid of failure as a kid and before I started doing well in kayaking competitions I was afraid to lose I think and it’s still something I have to work on today but you’ve just got to accept that you might not do well and see where you can go with it.

Anna
Yeah, the fear of failure is real. think, you know, in teaching kayaking for many, a few decades now, or over a few decades, one of the, when I ask folks what their biggest fear is, it’s not, you know, getting hurt or drowning, which of course that can be a fear for everyone in the background. What comes up most of the time is fear of being the weakest link or fear of being the worst person in the class. And I can also relate to the fear of not doing well in competition. And yeah, I think that those are the fears that actually hold us back, or I can only speak for myself. It’s definitely the fear that holds me back more than anything else. So when you were a kid and

How have you worked through that fear of losing? Do you have a process? I’ve seen you compete and you’re a strong competitor and paddler, obviously. Do you have a process? What has helped you? Do you have any pre-competition rituals or even on the river when you’re paddling something hard?

Ottilie
The way I attack a competition varies year to year, especially as I develop as a young adult. But this competition season, I’ve had great success with before I compete and say I’m struggling with fear of failure, I go out, I want to win, that does put pressure on myself. I sit there and I go over what could go wrong.

What’s the worst case scenario? And that’s generally that I lose or I don’t win or I get knocked out in prelims. That’s the worst case scenario. And once you write that down and you go, okay, I get knocked out of the prelims of the World Cup. What changes? Nothing changes.

like you still should be living a good and happy and healthy life, like it’s not threatening to your life or your wellbeing. And just acknowledging that the worst thing that could happen is you come last, that’s okay. And then from that point on, you can hopefully go in feeling bit more confident and knowing that if you do mess up, it’s okay.

Anna
Yeah, yeah, what I hear in that is that you have done a great job in separating your self-worth from your kayaking and your kayaking results, which when I competed, I was terrible at that. Like I totally would collapse my self-worth with my competition results. And I suffered a ton. And so I think that it’s so wise to…

to do that, to have that wisdom and that awareness already and approaching competition like that, because it’s so true, right? If you lose or, and I’m sure this past year at the world championships, you injured yourself in that, I think it was in the last in the finals, if I’m not mistaken. And so that must have been challenging for you.

essentially to come through. It was kind of one of your worst case scenarios. And so how did you, after that experience, for those of you who don’t know, Audie was in the finals, I would say, favored to win. I could tell, I was there commentating on the live stream and I could tell there was something not right just because of watching you paddle so much and…

Ottilie
Thanks

Anna
Turns out you had a, was it a separated shoulder?

Ottilie
Yes, so in the, it was the semi finals, which was an hour before finals. I had my worst dislocation to date. and I knew something wasn’t right and I paddled up on it. I told my coach and you know, I, I’ve worked my butt off to get there. So I decided I was going to carry on and compete, but a week later I found out I had quite a large tear to my labrum. and some other stuff going on and I, yeah, it wasn’t a very good day, if I’m honest.

Anna
of semi finals. Okay.

Yeah, no, I hear you. Yeah, how did you work through that day? And you can’t you were you won the silver medal, I believe. And so is that right? And so you still did very well. Although I know that when you’re the favorite to win, getting the silver can be still disappointing. It was still an amazing performance. How did you work through like that whole day or that whole I guess, experience from the competition to then finding out that you tore your labrum?

Ottilie
I am, if I’m honest, felt pretty crushed that day. And after the competition was like, well, after I’d done my three rides and I knew that I hadn’t paddled at my best and I hadn’t won, I cried hard and I was a bit broken and it’s hard in sports. You don’t want to look like a bad loser, but I was in so much pain. I just wanted to go and like hide and be with the people I loved and

Anna
Yeah.

Ottilie
It was one of the hardest few hours of my life having to pretend to be happy. And, you know, that’s not where I wanted to be. And it’s not something I’ve ever gone through before. You know, I’ve never got injured at a competition. And I think I was a bit hard on myself, you know, right after the event. And I, you know, that there’d be moments in the competition in that final where I’d lost focus. And I was like, Otty, if you just stayed focused, like, what were you doing in your competition? And then once I got the MRI and I realized my shoulders was actually pretty messed up and then fixing it became my priority and that took me away from the pain of doing badly in the competition. But it still upsets me a bit to this day but I have to remember that everything happens for a reason and I’ve had a really good year of competing and that might have not been the case if I hadn’t taken a break last winter.

Anna
Hmm, yeah. I think you went out for a minute there, so I missed the middle part of that. No, you’re good. Can you just repeat that answer just so I can make sure I have it on? It was great. It was amazing. So I just to capture that.

Ottilie
What was the… you were asking me about the competition day.

Anna
Yeah, you were just saying like you were going on about like how well I have a follow up question. Let’s just start here. I have a follow up question from the first part of your answer, which was that you didn’t want to be seen as a, you know, a sore loser. And so you’re pretending to be happy. And I just wonder about that because

Anna
I know, you know…

It is important to be able to lose gracefully in the sense of, you know, not being a sore loser. you know, in my day I’ve seen people like throw paddles and like be really mad and yell and cuss and all that. So I understand that. And at the same time,

You know, I’ve always been into like folks being able to be authentic. And I think in a way it’s too bad that, you know, we feel like, or you felt like you had to like pretend to be happy in the sense that you couldn’t just be yourself and be like, yeah, I’m really crushed right now. And that that would not be acceptable. You know, it doesn’t mean that you would be like mean to the other to like

sage or you know anyone else that was competing it it would just mean that you would be allowed to express yourself of like your truth of like yeah this is really hard for me right now so i don’t know if you have any reflections on that like do you feel what like what do feel about that pressure to like put on a happy face even though you’re feeling sad

Ottilie
It’s a hard one. I cried really hard when I paddled back into the eddy and I remember I had Den, my dad was there, Harry, and some of my best friends. And I couldn’t stop crying and hugging. And even now, thinking about it and all the love I was receiving makes me a little bit emotional in this moment because…

there were people there who were celebrating their successes and that was fantastic but I was having at the time one of the worst days of my life and I just had to stop crying and put on a smile and be like happy otty and stand on the podium and all I wanted to do was go and curl up in a ball and cry like that’s and that wasn’t necessary just because of the competition result like I was feeling like utter rubbish like my shoulder hurt a lot I was exhausted from the competition

Anna
Mm-hmm.

Ottilie
And yeah, balancing kind of who you are as a person and then how you kind of have to be on the outside as a competitor is something I find hard. I’m, I’m naturally quite quiet and I prefer to have a few really close friends rather than being extroverted and having lots and lots of friends. And people have been pretty cruel to me in the community and moaned at me for not being a social ball and out there paddler and like it’s a hard balance and sometimes you’re not accepted for who you are in the sport unfortunately.

Anna
Yeah, no, I hear you. think that’s probably true of any community that has like a culture, you know, or like a dominant culture. Yeah, I mean, I can relate for sure. And it took, you know, it took me a long time to realize that I actually don’t like big crowds and big parties. Or maybe I did when I was younger, I don’t know, but.

but I lose focus and I like to spend time again doing things with alone even or with a small group. And so I can really relate with that. And yeah, I think it’s important to remember that the folks who are criticizing, they want you to be a certain way so that they feel better about how they are, right? Rather than when…

or in my experience, folks who are confident, like truly confident in themselves are able to allow folks to just be who they are, right? And understand that we’re all different and we approach things very differently. Yeah, so.

Ottilie
Mm-hmm. And that ties in with competition, I guess, as well. Like, some of us are going to be on the side whooping and cheering, and some of us are going to quietly go up and say, done, when no one’s looking. And I think freestyle is quite a show sport, and there’s some really dominant characters, but there’s also some people who are really good at it who are the quietest souls and aren’t as in everyone’s faces and, you know.

Anna
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And actually, I’m glad you brought that up because yeah, freestyle is definitely like a show off sport to a certain extent. You know, that’s what I always found hard about it is all eyes are on you. You’re being timed. You have to like do like your best tricks. And it’s funny because my husband, Andrew, always he he loved he would love it. He was always such a great freestyle competitor and it made me like really nervous to be in that position. And you mentioned that you’re more quiet. And so how do you approach freestyle? Like you don’t occur for me as someone who’s like you said, boisterous and like showing off or, know, like look at me, but then you get out there and you really perform in that environment. So yeah, what is that like for you?

Ottilie
I was so quiet and shy growing up and I think kayaking has been really good for me and I’ve definitely come out my shell. And I think I do enjoy the showing off element. Like I don’t really like the pressure of competing, but when it’s going right and you’re having the ride of your life and you’re like, this is good. And it’s just, makes you feel really proud. Like I think it’s a, it seems like a good life skill, you know, being able to…

perform when it matters. But yeah, it’s definitely not something that’s come easy to me. Like the better I’ve got a kayaking, the easier it’s got to show off. And yeah, sometimes I enjoy it. Sometimes I really don’t enjoy it. Columbus being one of the situations where I didn’t want to be in the limelight. And I think it just varies. You we all go through different cycles in life and have different things going on in the background and you know it changes quite a lot but you know you get it’s quite special to almost get 45 seconds when you are the centre of attention and you just got to be positive and see what you can kind of do in that moment.

Anna
Yeah. Yeah. When it’s also actually probably a good life skill, even though it was really a terrible experience, maybe to be able to be like, okay, every all eyes on are on me. And so I’m going to put on a smile and go up to the podium and to know that you can also do that when you need to, you know, and then that you also have, you know, once that time is over, you have all of that support.

Like you were mentioning your dad, your coach, your friends, your family, you know.

Ottilie
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sometimes you do have to do something unpleasant and just get through it and then you can relax.

Anna
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And this podcast is about the discomfort zone and cultivating those skills. I just like thinking about it of, think it’s good to, like what we’re talking about is being thoughtful about, okay, well, the dominant culture is this, does it have to be this?

you know, where’s the space for people to be different and the same thing. Okay. Someone just had a really crappy day and they’re putting on like a good face, like, and if they don’t like, where’s the compassion, right? Or like, where is, what is the pressure? I just think it’s good to be thoughtful and not just go around saying, well, this is how it is. So this is how we have to be. And you know what I mean?

I think that’s good.

Ottilie
Yeah, and I think what’s really special about competing and being in this environment is we’re with we’re competing alongside people from all over the world with different cultures and backgrounds. And we’re all different people and everyone’s going to react to competition in a different way. And just like being respectful of that, I think is a really important skill.

Anna
Yeah, yeah, agree. Earlier you mentioned that you, it sounded like you have a journal maybe you were saying that you, or I thought I heard you say that you write down like worst case scenarios. Do you write them down in a journal? Is that part of your like pre-competition routine?

Ottilie
I have is actually with me now, but my kayaking journal where I write all my like training notes, but I also, you know, on the lead up to a competition, I might use it to like journal in a more like meditative way and just like dump my thoughts on paper or, you know, practice some different kind of skills or like mindfulness techniques, guess, going into events. But yeah, my journal comes everywhere with me.

Anna
Yeah, that’s great. What do you like about like what is how do you feel after journaling?

Ottilie
I think just what the process of writing things down makes my brain a lot clearer. You know, once you’ve dumped your thoughts out, you don’t need to worry about them. And my book is mostly filled with cool tricks I’ve done and like, right, so it’s, it’s there to, to stand as an evidence base to make me feel more confident as a paddler and a competitor.

Anna
Hmm.

Yeah.

Yes.

Ottilie
But it’s also just nice that I’ve got a big stack of journals, kayaking journals, starting from the age of 13 in my bedroom. And I can just flick through them and see how I’ve changed. sometimes I write myself little notes like, you did a huge clean Luna loop today. Well done, Ottie. And it’s nice to have the date and to be able to go back and go, wow, I did this. Or you were really proud of yourself that day, that kind of stuff.

Anna
Yeah, that’s great. I love that. I have also been journaling since I was a kid and it’s fun to, I’ve actually journaled less in the last like five to 10 years, but it is fun to go back and look. I still have like the first times that I did like a combat role and you know all that. It’s like so exciting. What I love about what you just said is evidence-based. And I think that’s so important because

It’s so easy for our minds to go to like the negative and to remember like what went wrong in a training session or, and so, right, at least for myself, I’ve taken on that practice more recently of just in life even like, okay, what are some things you’re really proud of this past year? Or like when was, know, okay, you want to do accomplish something really great in your business like let’s list out all the times that you’ve accomplished something similar in your business. I can write after I write them down, I’m like, yeah, I have done this and here’s what it took. And so if I’ve done it in the past, I can do it again. And I really love that exercise because then it, like you said, I like to read neuroscience books as well. And they talk about that that our brains will, like it’s easy for us to forget the good stuff and only focus on the negatives. But if you have it written down and you’re present to it, cause you can look through your journals, then that goes a long way to keeping, at least keeping me on track towards my goals.

Ottilie
Yeah, I agree. I think it’s a really good practice just for like your mental happiness, but also like if you are a competitor or you want to progress in a sport, like you should be writing down all the good stuff so that you can go back and like build your confidence over time.

Anna (
Yeah, yeah, that’s great. so what did you also we were talking about your injury from last October, and you took several months off. And I know that can be really hard. How did you work through that time where you couldn’t paddle because you love to paddle and I’m sure you couldn’t do a lot of things. So what how did you work through that discomfort of having to rest and not do the things you love?

Ottilie
I found it really hard, if I’m honest. And while I know that there’s people in much worse situations all over the world, like it was one of the hardest winters of my life. know, I had for me a fairly bad result at the competition and then I had a terrible news from my MRI and then I went home to cold rainy England. I was back living with my parents. I was miles away from all my friends and…

I felt very isolated and, you know, away from the thing that makes me the happiest. But I also think I kind of think in sport and in life that everything happens for a reason. And that maybe I was on route to potential burnout and actually taking a step back and being forced to sit and do nothing and watch more TV than I usually do and not do any sport was really like enlightening because it made me realize

Life without kayaking sucks and I’m going to do everything in my power to make sure that I’m back as quickly as I can be.

Anna
Yeah, yeah. And how was your recovery in terms of, was it physical therapy and that type of thing?

Ottilie
Yeah, so once I agreed to have the surgery, I did my research to find the best physio I could possibly find and I found a really nice guy near home and at that point, doing my rehab became my utmost priority. I couldn’t drive so I couldn’t go and work anyway.

So I was fortunate that my daily roles involved walking the dog and doing my rehab, which put me in a really great place to recover quickly. And then after a month I could start driving. So I started swimming and doing a bit more sport and some extra stuff in the gym. And the harder I worked, the closer I got to the goal of kayaking. it just became more and more, you know, exciting. And I actually really enjoyed the rehab process and like learning all the new different exercises. And many of them that I still do now is like a more of a prehab. You know, the winter sucked, but I enjoy progression and there’s nothing more progressive than going from not being able to move your arm to being back doing kayaking.

Anna
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think it’s worth doing the rest and doing all of the physio and all that to get back to kayaking rather than, I know some folks, can’t, the resting piece is so hard that they start too soon and kind of almost stunt the recovery. It sounds like you really, even though it was sucky, you embrace the fact that if I rest, it will be better later.

Ottilie
Definitely. I, the biggest goal after surgery was to never have to go through that again. so I wasn’t going to make any stupid decisions and get back too fast. And, you know, my physio and I, did lots of tests and, we actually followed a rugby return to sport protocol. because there obviously isn’t one for freestyle kayaking and that seemed to work really well. And, yeah, I think it was less than six months after surgery, I was back competing at the World Cups.

Anna
Yeah, that’s awesome. Yeah, congratulations on that. I’m excited for you.

Yeah, what’s the biggest thing that you’ve learned or what have you learned about yourself by putting yourself continuously in discomfort zones or even by not putting yourself, but you had to be because you got injured. Like what is, what have you learned about yourself through these experiences, these hard experiences?

Ottilie
I think it’s always important to remember that we as humans are pretty tough and we can go through some awful things and it always gets better. Sometimes it takes time, sometimes it takes a lot of effort, but you can hit rock bottom and you can come back up again and you you have to put effort into life, but if you do that like… and you keep trying, it won’t be too bad for too long, hopefully.

Anna
Yeah, yeah. I think that resonates definitely just in the last week here in Asheville. It’s been a little over a week since Hurricane Helene hit. And at first it was obviously total chaos. And it’s still some chaos, but I feel like it’s much more organized. People got into action. And even though there’s things that are, you know, like things that you can’t go back to, like some folks lost their homes and some folks, you know, the rivers are completely different and that there’s still that forward movement that I see in a lot of humanity and people coming together and focusing on the cleanup and the rebuilding. And I think it is very much human nature to

It can take a minute, like you said, especially when a lot is happening or you’ve lost a lot. And the only constant in life is change. So there is, can sit around and be sad, which is important. Again, as we’ve already talked about, there is gonna be a time for that and we need to honor that. And then there’s gonna be a time to…

move forward and if you’re still here, there’s still things to be done. yeah, not to wax cosmic on your answer. I’m just in it right now with the hurricane, know, but I love your answer. Actually, I was like, that’s such a great answer for right now. It just, it really spoke to me. It’s like, so thanks for that, that inspiration, Audie. That was great.

Ottie, do you have any questions for me?

Ottilie
I guess you coach, from what I see on social media, you coach a lot of people out on the water and try and get them feeling more confident. Like, I’m guessing there’s not a one solution fits all kind of thing. But like, how do you make, how do you generally make people feel more confident? Or does it just vary person to person?

Anna
Yeah, it definitely varies person to person and you know.

It’s not about me making them feel more confident. And I know you’re asking questions, so that’s how it came out. But I think that is actually an important aspect of all of this is that there’s no person that you know, makes you feel confident, makes someone else feel confident. But what I can do, I think what I’m really good at is listening and allowing folks as we’ve talked about in our conversation to show up just as they are. So someone might show up with a lot of fear and then I know we’re gonna progress at maybe a different pace than someone who has a little bit less fear. And I just don’t have my own agenda. I’m there for them and I listen closely to what their goals are and what they wanna get out of it.

And then I always like to have a coaching call before I meet with people so that I have an understanding ahead of time. even choosing the venue ahead of time instead of like showing up and meeting them and then deciding that day, I can mull it over and ask them like, what do they think? Here are the options. And I think providing space and holding space for people.

And I’m very calm. That’s the one thing that I’ve been told over and over and over again, is that that’s one of the things that folks like is I’m very calm. So again, in whitewater kayaking, a lot of times, like you said, people can get really amped up. And that’s great because that’s their process. I’ve never felt comfortable on hard rivers with people who are like, yeah, get it, you know, like run the NAR. Like I’m because it makes me actually more nervous. I’m also more quiet and I think that that calm presence helps folks a lot.

I’m also good at like boiling things down very simply. So not giving too much information because, you know, we can only focus on so many things at a time. But I think instructors and coaches sometimes underestimate the power of not talking too much and of not having to show the way so much rather than allowing people to discover what they need for themselves if, when they’re supported.

Ottilie
I like that. I am, I’ve spoken to a sports psychologist about like, how do you make people feel more confident before, and he gave a very similar answer of you, you can’t, like, you can’t make someone feel more confident, like you, they have to feel confident themselves, but you can create a space that might make them like, eventually, like build that confidence.

Ottilie
Yeah, that was cool. I haven’t asked that question to a kayak coach before, but it was nice to hear.

Anna
Nice. Yeah. Thank you for that question. It’s a great question. There is something else that just came to me about that. and the other thing about it is offering up challenges that are not too challenging, but challenging enough. Because it’s interesting with all this discomfort zone talk, in order for us to build confidence and to progress,

We definitely have to go beyond our comfort zone, but we have to feel safe doing it. And it’s like, if you’re on a river and that’s why people talk about it, you’re on a class five river and you’re nervous and you’re not sure about the crew you’re with. It’s a lot harder to push yourself when you don’t trust the people you’re with or, or, you know, you you’ve never paddled with them before. and that’s, that that’s kind of an example of that. Whereas you might be on a difficult river, but you’re with a crew you totally trust, you know them, they’re creating space for you, then you might go ahead and run that really hard rapid that you weren’t sure about, know, versus when you’re with people you don’t know, you’re like, I’m gonna, I’m gonna walk. Yeah. Well, cool. Okay, I have some rapid fire questions for you.

And really they’re designed to have a shorter answer, but sometimes we take longer. It doesn’t really matter, but okay.

So what is a morning ritual that sets you up for success?

Ottilie
Is this my ideal morning ritual? Something that I actually do?

Anna
No, something you actually do.

Ottilie
I guess in the morning, my priority is always to have a good breakfast. Like that sets me up for success. And then like I like to spend a little bit of time like only five minutes just warming up my body a little bit in the house. And, you know, that’s it’s also then another moment for me to sit down with my kayaking journal and write down, okay, today I want to work on this, this or you know, whatever.

Anna
Thanks

Ottilie
and just take a moment to myself before we head out the door and go off and do things.

Anna
Yeah, awesome. What is a good like what’s your favorite breakfast? Can you describe it to us?

Ottilie
At the moment I don’t like to leave the house without a bowl of scrambled eggs, some sort of toast, a yoghurt, some fruit, that would be my ideal breakfast.

Anna
Nice, thanks for sharing. Sounds good. Okay, what’s a non-negotiable self-care practice?

Ottilie
self-care practice. What do you mean by self-care? Is that like things like doing yoga and…

Anna
Self-care is just something that it’s a great question and I’m so glad you brought that up because yeah, some people think of self-care and they’re like, ooh, it’s bubble baths and woo woo stuff. But really actually what you already described as a morning routine that is self-care, right? It’s knowing what you need to take care of yourself so you have a great day so that you can go out and you can, you know, be of service to others, do your thing. And it’s even like,

Maybe things so you get a good night’s sleep. It’s whatever helps you have a great day and feel empowered in your life. That’s how I would describe self-care.

Ottilie
Okay, I think my non-negotiable for self-care then will be making sure I spend a good chunk of every day outside when I can. Most of time I’m kayaking so I get to be outdoors but if not I need to go on a walk or play football in the garden or something every day.

Anna
Yeah, yeah, that’s great. What’s a favorite motivational book or talk? And you mentioned some sports psychology books, so I don’t know if you want to share one of those.

Ottilie
I struggle to remember names of some of my favourite books or like, you know, out of all the sports psych books I’ve read. But the first one I read when I was 12 was called In the Zone. I can’t remember who the author was, but I think that set me up for success at 12. I think the earlier you can start reading those sort of things, the better and it helps you with school and exams and everything.

Anna
That’s great. In the zone.

Anna
What do people get wrong about you?

Ottilie
Hmm.

I guess I don’t always smile when I kayak, so people think I’m not having a good time, but really I’m having the best time. I just, I won’t really be smiling until I get off the water, but I am happy, I promise.

Anna
Okay, throughout the course of your life, have you considered yourself the underdog or the favored to win?

Ottilie
I think that’s changed as I’ve progressed. Like in kayaking, I was definitely the underdog until I think about the age of 16. And then once I started winning, I don’t think I’ve ever been the underdog in freestyle since. But I kind of miss it, if I’m honest. There’s a lot less pressure. And I think when you’re the underdog, you know, enjoy it. Like it’s fun to ruffle feathers.

Anna
Really? Right.

Yeah, it’s great. Okay, what’s one word that… wait, sorry. Next question is hard moves in easy water or flooding?

Ottilie
Like by flooding do you mean like big water?

Anna
Or just, yeah, just like, you know, jumping in full, you know, without. So you can think of like, are you more, I practice hard moves in easy water, or I just jump into like learning a new trick right away kind of deal. be.

Ottilie
This ties back to guess our discomfort and our like assessing risk. If there’s no risk to my like safety, I will just jump in and give it everything, you know. I have no fear in that regard. If there is actual risk, you know, it’s a hard river or whatever, then I will practice hard moves in easy water.

Anna
Yeah, got it. Okay, freedom. Okay, sorry. What’s one word that describes your comfort zone?

Ottilie
Hmm, I guess my comfort zone is changing constantly depending on the situation.

Anna
Okay, got it. Freedom through discipline or I do what I want.

Ottilie
discipline.

Anna
In one word, what do you hope your legacy will be?

Ottilie
beating the boys? Sorry, that’s multiple words.

Anna
No, that’s great. I love it. Awesome. I look forward to watching this unfold in the coming years. So is there anything else, Adi, that you want to say to our listeners about the discomfort zone or anything we’ve talked about today?

Ottilie
I don’t think so. I think it’s just important to enjoy what you do and you know if you’re scared, like if it’s out of your comfort zone and you’re having a bad time and you’re like not having fun then it’s probably not the right thing to be doing. So you’ve got to make sure that even if it’s scary that you’re kind of enjoying it as well.

Anna
Yeah, yeah, great. Well, thanks, Ottie. I really appreciate you taking the time. It was really fun to chat with you.

Ottilie
Thank you for having me.