Anna Levesque
My guest today, Greg McFadden, is the owner of Canyon’s River Company, one of the premier outfitters who runs trips on the Middle Fork and Main Salmon in central Idaho. In the shoulder season, he guides on the Grand Canyon for Azra, and in the winter, he’s a catski guide for Aspen Skiing Company. Greg is also a talented artist, and you can find his art at riverpainter.com. I’m excited to have him here today. Thanks for being here, Greg.

Greg McFadden
Thank you. Great to be here.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, you do so many things in the outdoor industry. So really excited to get into this conversation about the discomfort zone. So when I say discomfort zone, what comes up for you?

Greg McFadden
I think it’s just for me when I was kind of reading through some of the information for the, for this conversation. I think it’s just kind of putting yourself into uncomfortable or new places sometimes, or things that involve a lot of challenge. So that’s kind of what I would say.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, that’s a good definition. when you, I mean, I think when I look at what you do, it seems like you enjoy putting yourself in those situations. Am I right? So why do you do that?

Greg McFadden
You’re not wrong. correct. Yeah. Hmm. I think there’s a broad spectrum for why I do some of the things that I do. I think from the career aspect, it’s just a matter of falling in love with rivers and then the experience they lend and kind of that the initial contact that we have that you maybe don’t think through your entire career and all of the other challenges that might come along with that. But to be challenged to feel successful, just running rapids or finding yourself at home in nature. I don’t know, for me, found it, the river found me at a very formative age and it was kind of a place where it was for these multi-day trips and stuff, it found me a place where it was like life without mirrors. So you could kind of more be yourself in a lot of ways, but that has its own challenges sometimes because we really, as a culture and society, lean into that sometimes. So yeah, I think, I don’t know, there’s a lot of answers to that question, but of why.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. Well, I hear that it leads to growth and well, that was a big one I heard you say in that answer. I’m really excited that you brought up the idea of life without mirrors because I think that’s something that is really special about multi-day trips and

For folks listening, a lot of folks who listen to this podcast are paddlers. Some folks aren’t. When we talk about multi-day trips, it’s like you’re traveling downstream for many miles with everything you need. You’re camping out on the river, you have everything you need, and you’re staying out there for five days. Six days Grand Canyon can be 21 days or more.

And it’s a really special experience versus here on the East Coast, who do a lot of day trips. And that’s probably what some folks are more familiar with. And so when I heard you say, a life without mirror, that’s one of the things I love about, I’ve gone down the middle fork and the main. Well, several I’ve worked, I’m so grateful for Canyons. You all are an amazing outfit and I’ve done several women’s trips through MindBody Paddle with y’all. And it’s one of my favorite things is that, yeah, I do feel like I can be myself and I’m not looking in the mirror and wondering how do I look? How does my hair look? And actually it’s kind of, it’s daunting actually going back after a river trip and looking at yourself in the mirror because you’re like, whoa.

I haven’t looked at myself in the mirror and then because you are going back into society, know, quote unquote normal society, there’s all these judgments and of course it’s all story, right? So it’s all made up in our heads. So I, yeah. Okay. So I’ve just said a lot. How about you say more about that?

Greg McFadden
All right. Well, yeah, I mean, for me, like I said, it was a real formative time in life and especially to find myself as a gay male, you know, in the natural world in the late 80s, early 90s is when I first met the river. You know, it really wasn’t much of a scene. Turns out still not much of a scene as far as like my dating life or anything. But I really fell in love with the river. And I think there was sort of this you know, community that bonds over these experiences and whatever level that you are.

And then, you know, breaking bread and sharing meals together and, and, know, waking up and falling asleep next to each other in the same stars and feeling safe in those, in this wild environment. And, that resonated for me a lot because it was just very different. was no judging over, you know, who everyone was and it wasn’t the purpose of being there. were so, you know, we’re so dwarfed by the experience itself in our own humanity and just kind of, it really resonated for me. I, again, didn’t really think through the dating life and this long, long career that I’ve had and so forth. But also because of that experience, I think that brought me to some uncomfortable places to change that diatribe, to change the way that wilderness is experienced by some a lot of the users who we are able to host and create safe spaces in the middle of work in Maine. So it became a much bigger platform for me. had no idea at the time. I just fell in love with rivers. I fell in love with whitewater. I fell in love with those moments. And I think the other thing is you’re not all that jumbleness in your head that you think about for whatever lens that you feel like people are judging you is completely gone when you dive into whitewater. You’re not thinking about…

anything, you’re not thinking about your credit card bill, you’re not thinking about your, you know, your next anything when you are entering into a rapid, you know, it’s you and the river, and it’s just kind of the ultimate Zen, you know, so I think there’s a lot of things that that resonate and still resonate for me in that community, that place and that experience that that bonding with something bigger than ourselves. So yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, yeah. Thanks for sharing. that presence is really special being present. And also being like to your point when you’re in whitewater, you’re talking about being in whitewater when you’re on the river, same thing. If you’re traveling down the river with this group of people, there’s no one else to go to unless you want to call a helicopter in. So in terms of, I mean, relationship,managing and building and, you know, I think picking your fights, so to speak, and then also accepting like, yeah, if you do have an opinion about someone, well, guess what, you’re on the river with them for a week, three weeks, and you are counting on them and they’re counting on you. And I think that that lends itself to deeper understanding of each other as well as humans in, as you say, in a place that’s greater than ourselves.

Greg McFadden
Yeah, and it just fosters trust, you know, without a lot of like, you know, a lot of homework into that trust, you just are thrown into these environments where, and that really builds some really kindred relationships with people and just kind of gives you into sort of next level conversation even, you know, and just people really reveal themselves in a lot of ways, I think, when we’re surrounded by that trust with each other and by

You know, the greatness of, of running rivers and being connected to them. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Do you find the same type of feeling like when you’re catski guiding in the winter? what is there? Because that’s more day trips. That’s a different experience. And yet is it similar?

Greg McFadden
Yeah, it’s similar in a lot of ways. It’s powder skiing that I guide on the backside of Ajax here in town. It’s definitely a one-day experience, but we have a lot of repeat folks, so it still builds a community in a lot of ways. With my guide colleagues and stuff, we are still responsible. We’re still an avalanche train. We’re responsible for people’s lives.

And so we again have that, you know, very kindred connection that that that trust that we just sort of then are able to share with other folks. There’s a lot of fun and powder skiing and it’s it’s a really beautiful part of Colorado as well. So, yeah, I think the longer experiences of Riverlife tend to just foster that even more so than to the day trips.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, and when you say you’re responsible for people’s lives, anyone who is a guide or a trip leader can really relate with that. What is your… Because that’s a discomfort zone, I think. So when you think of discomfort zone and having people’s lives in your hands, how do you approach that? Is there anything that stands out?

Greg McFadden
I mean, I think you have to be, you know, I think a lot of river guides and folks in the industry are probably had we been in a different age, probably been, you know, really diagnosed with ADHD or, or at least a lot of ways that we’re able to give our attention to many things. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I think it’s an incredible trait to have because we really have to have a lot that goes through our mind at all times in thinking of scenarios ahead, thinking of what’s ahead and then really also sort of this clairvoyance of reading people and, knowing where they’re at and the more that you’re around people and, know, I’ve taken tens of thousands of people down rivers in my course of nearly 35 years of guiding and, and, these really intimate experiences. so that’s part of that is, is sort of when you first step into that, it’s a lot to realize what you’re doing aside from running rivers and, you know, directing people to paddle or

but there’s a whole different sense that you can again foster and kind of build through your career that in reading people and where they’re at. So sometimes it’s easy by saying that it points back to that discomfort where it’s easy to take on other people’s discomfort. So I think for me, I have to sort of settle that and allow people, it’s a quick trust, like I say, that we give people. And so we have to kind of nurture that immediate trust and you know, they may, it might take a day or two for people to sort of ease into to their own rhythm with it. So just kind of helping people along to find that ease for themselves, I think, and have a discomfort that we don’t know until we’re out there with the water levels are the weather and certainly who the people are that, you know, our guests that sign up to do this. So it’s a wonderful experience and it really creates a bond that.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Greg McFadden
You know, a lot of our guests, you know, it’s funny, I’ll run into people randomly across the country sometimes even in an airport or whatever. And it’s wild. Like they’ll be like, Greg, my goodness, you know, from, and sometimes it’s really funny. I’ll, like I say, tens of thousands of people and I’ll remember that person’s name, you know, and it’ll surprise myself sometimes in that. it could have been from decades ago. So it’s pretty wild. The impact that I think you can have as a guide the word guide, it’s a pretty big word. So there’s a lot of discomfort that just comes with that in general. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
It is a big word actually in the American Canoe Association. were just having a big discussion about that word actually yesterday, which is interesting. I think it’s a huge skill to, like you’re saying, be able to read people, not take on everything that’s going on. Because I know as a leader, I’ve trained myself, learned how to

It’s not my responsibility to fix everything for everyone. And like you’re saying, allowing people to have their own experience. And sometimes that means I’m uncomfortable as a leader because I know that person is struggling with something and the only way through is to let them struggle while also obviously providing, like holding space for that struggle in a supportive way. But it’s not to go in and fix it necessarily.

but to let them know, like you’re saying that trust that you’re there for them. think that is a, I think it’s an underrated skill actually. And that guides and multi-day trip guides, like you’re saying you’re out there for a whole week with folks. that’s, yeah, it could be easy to like exhaust yourself trying to fix everything and ultimately.

People will have their own experiences and they’ll have their own judgments and you can’t control other people or how they think or what they experience and being able to be okay with that. Be like, I’m doing the best that I can and these folks need to have the experience that they need to have. Because you don’t know what their life is like or what’s going on or what they’re going through necessarily.

Greg McFadden
Yeah, and I think too, like in those spaces, just it creates a very intimate connection to people and they want to hear our stories as guides. And for them to become vulnerable, we sometimes have to be very vulnerable in telling our stories.

And they look to us because we’re the experts out there really taking care of them. But even on personal levels and being able to share how we got there, what life is like, why we’re here in this career. And it’s very different than what we like to call the real world and the nine to five world and all that. So it’s curious to people and it’s curious to a lot of our guests. I think there’s a certain vulnerability that is a discomfort in how much do you share and are you just a wide open book? And then if you are, amazing. And that allows people to also be the same. But you do have to kind of nurture yourself to do that as a job, in a basis that way. Even like with a therapist, you’re not necessarily hearing all the therapist’s story, but in a lot of ways, you know, like I say, these intimate environments and conversations and relationships that we wind up building with our guests, you know, it’s pretty vulnerable across the board. And then that translates, of course, into the river. You know our program. We’re just like the Easter parade out there with our amount of crafts. And we really, you know, try to empower people to, who maybe have never even run Whitewater to be in their own crafts, you know, and run, we have eight deckies and the litany of, you know, hard shell kayaks and still open boaters that come out and do trips with us. And so, you know, it’s not unusual for us to have many, many crafts. And that also is inspiring even for people who haven’t been in their own craft or their own, you know, inflatable kayak or something to give that a whirl. And we’re there for them in that way, but it’s still kind of in that setting, in that craft, it is their own vulnerability and their own experience with that. So.

That’s another step of how that trust continues on and even trusting yourself, which is sometimes a big lesson for folks.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, for sure. That’s a huge lesson, which is really cool about whitewater and getting into your own craft. I love the multi-craft. mean, that’s one of the things I love about going on the main salmon, my groups, people would switch out. And I would encourage folks in kayaks to switch out, like get on the stand-up board, see how that feels, get in the raft. Don’t be so stubborn about like, have to stay in my hard shell this whole time or I’m not cool.

You know, like that, the river trip is about more than that. Yeah. So that’s really cool. Yeah. I think that I struggle a little bit with vulnerability. I’ve been working on it over the years to be more and more vulnerable. I definitely can, you know, create a barrier, especially in the past. So that’s a journey, right? And it’s good as…

Greg McFadden
Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah.

Anna Levesque
As a guide, as a leader, it’s always, I think, important to be growth-minded and know that there’s always something more to learn. In the spirit of vulnerability, I want to ask, in the beginning of our conversation, you mentioned that it’s not much of a scene for being an openly gay man in whitewater or in the outdoor industry.

Have you seen any changes? Have you seen more LGBTQ plus folks? And especially, I would say, you know, it is, I’ve been in the Whitewater world for 30 years now, and it is very rare to encounter an openly gay man in Whitewater. And so do you wanna speak to that or share? Yeah.

Greg McFadden
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, like I said, I fell in love with the river first, just it was that incredible space and you’re able to be vulnerable. And I think the sense of community, I, you know, even in our, you know, birthright families, you know, having queer children, especially, you know, I was, you know, I was born in the late sixties. So, you know, I was kind of, you know,
late teens in the mid 80s and so forth started college in 1986. So it was just a really different time for gay culture in a lot of ways and for queer culture. And I, again, just always kind of had this at home feeling really felt accepted with canyons with who I’ve worked with and for 30 plus years now and half of that career I was guiding the other half of I became the owner. And it was always very welcoming just from our group of guides and that family-based outfitter. And as time went on, I finally had asked them, the previous outfitters, would it be okay if we started doing some gay men’s trips or something, trying to organize that? Which from a marketing standpoint, having gay men come to Idaho to spend money and go on vacation was not really well thought through. But eventually that started happening on a very small scale.

Since I’ve become owner, which is 16 years ago now, we have always run queer community trips. And that has now threaded, it’s taken like three decades from doing these sort of specialty trips to kind of just, if we just offer those, then it just creates a safe space for people to realize, they can sign up for any of our trips. I mean, we have families and, you know, kids, you know, older folks, whatever paddlers, know, folks from around the country, from around the world, different languages, all the things. so we’re finally seeing now, you know, in the last five years or so, even more, that this thread of different kinds of folks coming on our trips kind of intermixed, which is really what the goal was for me initially, was to create safe spaces for everyone out there.

And so it’s really nice. think from the other aspect in that regard is a lot of our younger guides, get, I think we had 80 applicants last year and we hired one person. So I think part of our messaging and what we do just to help create these safe spaces for all kinds of folks in the wilderness and on longer river trips has resonated a lot with a lot of the younger river guides these days. We do have non-binary, we have trans, we have gay and bi and, you know, all kinds of different guides who work for us or sort of identify themselves on that spectrum somewhere. And then we have guys who are married with kids and so forth too that are more, you know, come from more of a traditional lens in that way. But it’s, everyone is all about sort of the love for the river and the community and the inclusiveness that our public lands offer. So.

A bigger step beyond that was sort of after 2020 and George Floyd, I had been living off this platform as authentically as a gay man for a long time. our doors have been wide open to the queer community, which has been lovely. But I realized I was really missing in central Idaho. It’s a tiny state of about a million and a half people, not a lot of diversity as far as BIPOC folks either. so.

reached across and we’ve been working with the Greening Youth Foundation out of Atlanta, kind of from your neck of the woods, for a few years. And they just came out and did another trip with us this year in August. And we have actually little movie that’s premiering at the Atlanta REI in a couple weeks about that journey. And so, again, the whole idea of inclusivity across the large swath of many types of people that are really underrepresented in wilderness and particularly in our region in central Idaho has become a platform for me or a bigger road that I didn’t realize I was stepping into as just simply a young man that fell in love with rivers back in the late 80s and so forth. But it did change my life in really hard times. And so I think it’s my… duty in a way to kind of give back to that beautiful resource and the experience that it lends to. There’s many people that can find themselves there and realize that it doesn’t have to be sort of this monochromatic, one type of person that can experience and take a lot away from this and also build community because that’s really what community is about.

It’s that way in nature too, it’s about diversity. There’s different populaces that we’re seeing throughout. It’s been a thread and it doesn’t happen overnight. It didn’t happen overnight in queer culture and it’s not going to necessarily happen overnight with the invitation and the investment that we’ve done for BIPOC folks to also feel comfortable in these zones. But yeah, we’re moving forward with all that. And then we also have another approach that I’m working on in the next couple of years with Indigenous youth too. you know, we’re really trying to spread our wings in every way. And it’s as my career, know, 35 years deep into it. And, you know, I’m looking ahead, it’s like, wow, all of a sudden you realize these things just don’t happen overnight. So I’m motivated even in some of those spaces, which I may not be comfortable in or as familiar with or knowing how to approach those invitations and investments to have people have these experiences. That feels more limited as time ticks on. So I think that’s motivating too, in a lot of ways.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. And it is, that is a huge discomfort zone. know, same thing after 2020, I made a commitment to myself that I was going to diversify my network because I looked around and although I’ve, my career has been dedicated to empowering women in Whitewater and I’m really proud of the work that I’ve done. When I looked around, was like a lot of women who looked like me and it’s like, okay, well how, you know,

There’s a missing there. And yeah, it did, it took and does take vulnerability to reach out to different communities. And you might, you know, afraid of whatever saying the wrong thing or whatever it is. And it has been, it has really enriched my life the last four years. And I’ve become, like you said, more committed to it. And yes, and I think

It’s important work. So that is a discomfort zone. mean, it is important to be vulnerable. And when we think of ourselves as courageous running rivers, how can we be courageous in other areas of our lives and look around and where are we kind of sitting in the norm and how can we challenge ourselves to…

Yeah, make new connections and to, like you said, spread the love of the river, nature, being out there. It’s, and actually in my instructor certification courses for kayaking, I like to bring up, especially in stand-up paddle boarding. I don’t know why it’s in the curriculum in stand-up paddle boarding. They, one of the items is present the history of stand-up paddle boarding.

And so people come and they’ll say, they would say something like, Laird Hamilton invented it, like with big wave surfer from Hawaii. you know, actually when you look at it, people have been standing up and paddling on craft for thousands of years. When you look at canoeing, it was an indigenous way of transport, right? Same thing with stand up paddle boarding. Like these are not quote unquote white sports. These are things, these are, ways to navigate. These are indigenous ways of life, of navigation, of hunting, fishing. And I think that that’s an important thing for all of us to be present to.

Greg McFadden
Absolutely. That’s a big part and a beautiful theme from one of the guests that was on our Greening Youth Foundation in the movie that’s premiering down or screening down in Atlanta in a couple of weeks. And she has a great quote, Michaela is her name, and she works for the Forest Service. she’s like, Black and brown people have been doing this for thousands of years. We’re just coming back to it. And it’s like such a

You know, it’s like, of course, you know, so it’s, it’s funny that we even have the lens that we need to give invitation in a lot of ways, but culturally that’s where things have drifted to in many ways. And it’s, it’s very privileged to be able to, to go into some of these public spaces and afford to be able to do them and so forth. And, know, big other discomfort with that was we didn’t just do the invitation. We did a giant investment. And so we offered literally hundreds of thousands of dollars that we gave to creating two years of these trips with Greening Youth. And now I’m winding up on their board and really dove in deep on the commitments to this, it’s very, there’s no trip that’s been more rewarding, I gotta say, in the last trip that we just did together. And probably no trip that’s really been quite as vulnerable in many ways. So just…

It’s a beautiful process happening. We’re doing it on a small scale, but that message will carry through. And again, it’s our public lands. It belongs to everyone. And so it’s really nice to not just create the invitation, but the investment and really the time and the monies and the efforts to promote things more and more that way. And same thing’s true with queer culture. Again, that’s been my authentic story. And it’s really cool to see our little corner of the Whitewater world, you know, be known as such a safe environment, not only for our guests, but, you know, for guides who have that same likeness that we did. I remember one of my first trips in Grand Canyon, you know, I showed up strong and proud, all in pink, giant white sunglasses, you know, and I was working with some pretty crusty older fellas down there at the time. you know, by the time we finished the trip, I was with one guy who was probably close to about 70 and had worked down there a long, long time. And this was quite a while ago like mid nineties and you know, we got done with the trip and he’s like, you know, Greg, I’ve never met a gay person, but I’m really, you’ve really changed my, I mean, this was a long time ago too, 30 years ago, but you know, you really changed my, the way that I think about people and you’re an incredible boatman and you know, I would follow your lead anyway. It was just really, and it was highly surprising to me that he said that at the end of the trip because you know, there was definitely some, comfort zones that were challenged when it’s starting to career, especially kind of a very, you know, sort of misogynistic culture that that fostered itself in Grand Canyon. I think that has changed. Amen. But there’s still, you know, residual of that. And, you know, I think it took a long time even for women to break the barrier in Grand Canyon. And I worked with a lot of those original women who I love and adore and still great friends with today. And, and

And I think that they paved a big path for changing that culture down there. And I still have yet to meet a lot of other gay men, gray canyon guides, but we’re gonna get there. again, it just doesn’t happen overnight, but it’s to know that there’s a few of us out there and queer culture alike has spread its wings a little bit more down there. So it’s really nice to see.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, yeah, that’s great. And it is about, does take time and it’s about showing up day after day. And what we’re really talking about, think too, is being yourself, being myself and doing the work and again, holding space for folks and reaching out and being vulnerable and courageous. All of this is, yeah, really important. it is the hard moves in…

Well, it’s actually not hard moves in Easy Water because it’s actually, it’s hard moves in hard water, but it’s showing up, you know? And like you said, I guess hard moves in Easy Water is kind of like creating those affinity spaces. And like you said, for folks to come and then they realize, well, I don’t have to. you know, people would say, why don’t you just teach everyone? And actually I have a lot of, now especially, male clients and I always would talk about in my women-specific courses, it’s not about, we only want to paddle with women. No, it’s about coming together, feeling super supported, feeling like you can be yourself. That gives you the confidence to then go out and be with others because you know you’re not alone. You know that you have a support system. They might not be right there with you, but you know that you can talk to them about a debrief. You have…

different strategies that you’ve learned from being in those affinity spaces. I think, yeah, that is the power of those affinity spaces and why they are so, they’re like little, you know, kind of seed pods that then you extend out from there. It’s not about always just being with the same people all the time.

Greg McFadden
Yeah, and I think just representation is such an important thing in many of the places, especially like I say in central Idaho, where regionalism can give that a bigger challenge. And of course, there’s many places in our great country where it’s a real mixing pot, it’s a real blend. But the wilderness has not been that way. And there’s many historical reasons for queer communities, for the Black community, for Indigenous people, that there’s been a giant historical and cultural place of loss in some of those places. So, you know, there’s other reasons behind it. So the representation is so important and then for people to, you know, to sort of gravitate to those places and know that whether, you know, they’re a female that’s learn to paddle with you that may not find yourself surrounded by a ton of other women in a space on the wherever on the Chattouga or something in an eddy, you know, getting ready to serve some particular wave or something, you know, might look around and see, wow, there’s a whole lot of other fellas in the same eddy. But you know, it’s nice to know that representation. She knows that she’s been with you and, there are other women doing this. So it can feel vulnerable in those spaces. But you know, it’s, again, it’s, it’s just people take it for granted, or sometimes they wonder why, all

You I’ve had people say, well, why are you doing this? You know, I don’t, we don’t even see color. I’m like, well, you wouldn’t see color if you were in the regional area where we’re at. That’s for darn sure. So, you know, we got to, you know, I get what you’re saying, but it still takes the representation to break through some different cultural, cultural barriers that have prevented people from enjoying some of the same experiences on our public lands that some people just really do take for granted. And it’s been pretty easy access for them. So yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. And they’ve seen themselves in photos and videos and forever because it’s, you yeah. And to that point, there is a big pushback right now on this kind of work that we’re talking about. that’s interesting as well. Like culturally in our country right now, there’s a big pushback on it.

Greg McFadden
Exactly.

Anna Levesque
Luckily, what I find is that, yeah, I just keep, again, I just keep showing up and doing the things with the people who are interested. And then again, it keeps growing.

Greg McFadden
Yeah, and I think the discomfort zones, know, everything is, any of discomforts come around fear, whether it’s fear of failure, fear of this, or fear of loss, or fear of any of the things. And so I think, you know, the pushback is, again, a weird fear of loss from a different angle, even though it may not even be conscious for certain part of our culture. So, but once people realize we’re all…

deserve to be there together and build community together. That’s kind of how it all works. Or some of us wouldn’t even exist or have to have to lean into that to know that we do have purpose in the world and all the things. think then, you know, again, I feel like those people just need more river trips, you know, with with other people, you know, that’s how we change the world is one river trip at a time. And I think that’s what really brings people together. Again, it’s that life without mirrors. You’re not thinking about those things, but you’re connecting to one another and you’re facing some fears, you know, every day. So that’s, I think, part of it. And people are afraid to be afraid sometimes, which is a weird concept. But it’s just part of humanity, you know, so, yeah. Anyway.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, well, it’s not weird to our brains. It makes a lot of sense to our brains, but that’s why we have to override that sometimes. Yep.

Greg, do you have a question for me?

Greg McFadden
Hmm. Let’s see. A, how excited are you to come to Idaho? We already know that one. I would say, yeah, what keeps you, you know, you do some really strong messaging, some a lot of work for a lot of other people. I know you have, you know, supportive, you know, group of friends and paddlers and husband and all of the things.

But what is your go-to to kind of calm, and I know that you do a lot of yoga and all the other things, but I feel like you’re giving a lot. So how do you get through some of your discomfort zones in the amount that you give and dedicate your life to these types of messaging and these types of really important conversations?

Anna Levesque
Well, thanks for that acknowledgement. taking time for myself is super important. so, I like my mornings are, I try to do it again consistently. So my mornings are sacred. You know, I don’t look at my phone in the morning. I have at least…

I mean, even if I have to get up and like I’m teaching kayaking and I’ve got to go, I still don’t look at my phone until after I’ve done a certain amount of different routines that are actually really easy for me. They’re like second nature now. And so I always carve out space and like to start my day with a gratitude. And I find that that helps a lot. And also I can get pretty fiery, like especially when I’m working with organizations, I get really…

really mad. People think of, I think a lot of folks think of me as being very calm. And I even get that even when I’m really mad and I’m communicating, people still are like, you’re so calm and the way you communicate is, you know, and inside I’m just like, so mad. I’m like, F this, like what, what, what is wrong with you? You know, I, and so knowing myself, think self-awareness and knowing like, okay, I’m, you know, and knowing that like just, being mad and just saying whatever is not going to solve anything, right? It’s kind of like taking a step back and you’re looking at the rapid, know, take a step back, what’s going on here? What’s the next move you want to make? And of course, I’m not, I say this, it’s a practice. I’m not perfect, but yeah, I think that taking a deep breath is important. Practicing self-care, knowing myself, so that, okay, I tend to get really mad or whatever in these situations. sometimes I’ll go into meetings or I try and set an intention of like, what do I want people to leave with at the end of this day or this trip or this meeting?

And I’m not perfect. So when I, when I set an intention, then I keep coming back to it. It’s like, what, what am I doing here? Right. and also I think setting boundaries is huge and that goes with like the sacred time. You know, people don’t want to be in meetings and some people, like none of us really want to be in meetings. Right. But then if the, be a strong Lee, I didn’t realize I had this
skill as I’m a really good meeting leader because I actually time people. Like I time, like, okay, you have a time limit, you know, and I keep it moving, but that’s so that we can stay on track of like, what is our purpose here? And it can be easy, especially if someone doesn’t feel heard in their life that they wanna like talk, but that’s not the time or space for it. So I think staying.
remembering why I’m doing things and staying on track.

Greg McFadden
Nice, awesome. I like it. And with that track, just as a quick follow up, what’s next for you then?

Anna Levesque
What’s next for me? wow. I am finishing up a three-year term as the chair of the Safety Education and Instruction Council at the American Canoe Association. And I’ve learned so much and have grown so much in that role. And so I had a seat on the ACA board as well, and that’s coming to an end. And I’m actually looking to do maybe a bit more with some other nonprofits and, you know, the business, you know, running my business and looking forward to 2027 Middle Main with you. And maybe I’ll get you to commit now because we’ve never actually been on the river together, I don’t think, even though I’ve done many trips with Canyons. So anyone out there 2027, June, high water, Middle Main, it’s going to be awesome. Greg’s going to be on the trip. He’s already saying. But yeah finding new adventures is fun. And keeping it fresh in the business, as you know, there’s things that you want to stay consistent with, and then there’s things that you want to mix up. And I think we’ve talked about that a lot in this conversation. So, that’s good. All right, are you ready for rapid fire? Okay, hold on.

Greg McFadden
Yeah, for sure. Well, awesome.

yeah, let’s do this. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Jeez. Okay. What is a morning ritual that sets you up for success?

Greg McFadden
Coffee. We’re big advocates of coffee talk at Canyons. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Anna Levesque
Yes, I love coffee talk.

What’s a non-negotiable self-care practice?

Greg McFadden
Hmm Cool non-negotiable

Greg McFadden
sleep. We don’t we don’t give that enough credit. yeah, I yeah, yeah.

Anna Levesque
Absolutely, yes, I’m with you. It’s huge. Yes. In my mental agility mastery eight week course, we spend a whole week on sleep because it is underrated and it’s so important. okay, what’s a favorite motivational book or talk?

Greg McFadden
Yeah, yeah.

Greg McFadden
Motivational book.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, or inspiring book, you know.

Greg McFadden
Yeah, it’s kind of funny. This fiction book comes to mind for me that’s called The Man Who Fell in Love with the Moon by Thomas Spambauer. It’s not a very well-known book, but it’s like a Western, but it’s kind of like, wrapped up for me. A long time ago, I read it. A friend of mine gave it to me and it sort of dealt with lot of nuances towards sort of queer culture in the Western world. And I don’t know, it just stuck with me for a long time and I’ve read it a number of times and it’s sort of…

Again, it’s a fictional book, it’s got some racy parts to it here and there. I like to pick up time and time again sometimes just to re-grab myself to maybe where I was when I first read that a long time ago.

Anna Levesque
Hmm. Yeah, tell me the title again.

Greg McFadden
It’s called The Man Who Fell In Love With The Moon. Yeah, anyway.

Anna Levesque
Okay, great.

What do people get wrong about you?

Greg McFadden
I think they get, I think they might get wrong. And I’ve learned it’s just, this kind of resonates back to some of your conversation, is, that I actually do have boundaries. I think when we, when we river guide, we give, give, give, and there doesn’t seem like there’s any boundaries for whatever people’s needs are, all the time. But, I have found myself in life in,

particularly like, you know, in the business side of things where there does have, there do have to be some boundaries. And I’m still working on that in the self care side of it. And I need to give myself a few more boundaries sometimes for the amount of work we try to pull off. But it’s a life lesson and learning more about that. But I think because I give that so much that people sometimes think there’s no end to it. And sometimes there is a threshold out there. So yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, yeah. Throughout the course of your life, you felt like the underdog or the favored to win?

Greg McFadden
Hmm. Interesting. I think some people have maybe viewed me as the underdog, but in my mind, I’ve been the favorite to win.

Anna Levesque
love it. Yes.

Cool. Okay, hard moves in easy water or flooding?

Greg McFadden
hard moves in easy water. Well, I’m not a great squirt boater, I guess. And I’m pretty used to some raging. My comfort zone is not shy when it comes to our beautiful free flowing Salmon River. So I’m gonna go with flooding.

Anna Levesque
Okay.

What’s one word that describes your comfort zone?

Greg McFadden
One word.

Anna Levesque
could be two words.

Greg McFadden
I’m just gonna say joy, you know? think there’s, yeah, we’ll go with joy, yeah.

Anna Levesque
Joy. Freedom through discipline or I do what I want.

Greg McFadden
Cool. I do what I want and I learn a lot about discipline.

Anna Levesque
I love it. That’s awesome. Okay. In one word, what do you hope your legacy will be?

Greg McFadden
I hope my legacy will continue to be that life without mirrors is pretty important to humanity and that experience is everything. And that’s where, you know.

Joy happens, it’s where people come together and community is, we don’t survive without it. So there’s an important role to what our little river worlds create. And also, of course, being ever overshadowed by the real earth. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm. Love it. Do you have anything else you want to say to our listeners?

Greg McFadden
I want to say thanks for listening and hopefully love to see you on a river somewhere or invite people to if they’re in your neck of the woods to come to REI on think it’s Sunday the 15th in downtown Atlanta to check out our latest project and movie working with the Greening Youth Foundation and also thank you so much. I look forward to seeing you at America Outdoors next week and connecting in person and sharing a hug too.

Anna Levesque
Yes.

Yeah, definitely. Middle Main, 2027.

Greg McFadden
yeah. yes, Middle Main coming right up.

Anna Levesque
Thanks so much, Greg. I really appreciate you and the work that you do. You make a big difference. So thank you.

Greg McFadden
Thank you, thanks for having me. And likewise, cheers.