Anna Levesque
My guest today, Gerry Seavo-James, is Deputy Campaign Director for the Sierra Club’s Outdoors for All campaign, where he works with a team focused on securing federal legislative and administrative opportunities that accelerate outdoor access and equity across the US. He is also the founder of Outdoor Recreation Lab, a creative think tank rooted in incubation of inclusive outdoor environments
helping all people be active, preservation of biodiversity, and just transition for rural communities. Gerry is a certified American Canoe Association instructor in various disciplines and winner of their 2018 Joe Pina Volunteer of the Year Award. In 2020, he co-founded the ACA’s DEI Working Group that kickstarted the organization’s inclusion efforts, including the establishment of the Equity and Inclusion Fund, the community paddle sports leader certification, creation of an inclusion-focused staff role, the Community Paddle Sports Leadership Academy, and the Leadership Exploration and Development Initiative, also known as LEAD. Jerry earned a Bachelor of Science in Mass Communications from Campbellsville University. He’s also an Air Force veteran, social artist, and photojournalist. He lives in Kentucky with his wife, Allison, and their young daughter. And I’m excited to talk with Jerry today. So thanks for being here, Jerry. Appreciate you.

Gerry James
Thanks, Anna, for having me on the show. I feel like, I feel weird because like I should be interviewing you. You’re the famous one.

Anna Levesque
I don’t know about that. I have really appreciated working with you on several of these projects, the American Canoe Association projects and the Paddle Sport Leadership Academy projects and really appreciate your work and who you are in the world. So I’m super happy to be interviewing you for this episode. And I’m going to jump in. When I say discomfort zone,

What comes up for you?

Gerry James
Discomfort zone.

Whereby, it maybe makes my skin crawl. Like the back of my back started crawling. That’s what I think of this comfort zone. Like the EVGBs, that feeling of unknown or uncertainty.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, I think there is. think that’s

that resonates with me that unknown and uncertainty because if you know what’s going to happen, it’s pretty, or it can be comfortable. I guess it depends on what’s going to happen. But when you don’t know what’s going to happen and you’re passionate about something and you’re trying something for the first time, especially, or for the hundredth time, it can be very uncomfortable.

Is that you described a sensation on the back of your neck, is that something that you experience physically when you feel challenged or are there other physical sensations that you go through?

Gerry James
That’s what I feel, that’s what happens. It’s like this spidey sense of tingling, of like, through my back, through my body, and I have to work to figure it out. How do I solve the issue? I’m very pedantic about it. How do I solve the issue to get past that feeling?

Anna Levesque
What are some strategies? Can you share with us like what some strategies are in terms of you working that out?

Gerry James
I think a lot of times for me it’s talking to people. They come like sometimes, like, cause sometimes I might feel misunderstood. I, like I grew up with going to like speech therapy. So I had a speech impediment, you know, I also had, you know, dyslexia growing up. And so, you know, my mother helped me like work through it and what it is in my brain, I’m thinking like, I think, think really fast.

Like my brain is like the neurons fire and like I’m an idea. I might have like 50 ideas at once and I think and I can figure out how to solve them at once too. And so slowing it down to articulate it is like hard. It was hard. hard. And so that’s something I worked through as a kid is like how to how to do that. And so in my adulthood, like

I still experience that a little bit. so sometimes it comes like, like, I like my, I might think in like, I have the issue solved, but then the way I articulate it, like I need to make sure I hold space for other people to feel part of it. Or they might, or I might just give a choppy answer. And like, I’m like, I give the choppy answer because I’m like, like I know what it is. And I need to slow it down and get, so I’m like, I will talk to a person.

Like, can we just like talk it out, you know, have an extended conversation and that really helps me like, you know, feel better, you know, feel understood and stuff.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, I appreciate that you’re describing a discomfort zone that you might experience really day to day in your life. And I appreciate that because it’s important, I think, for discomfort zones in terms of in this podcast, obviously we’re all

A lot of folks are paddlers, so we have a lot of river analogies. And it’s really important to, or one of the things I’m passionate about is how does facing our discomfort, you know, on the river, on, I know you’re passionate about alpine skiing, so am I, right, on the mountain. And how does that relate back to, or how do our day-to-day and how we experience the…

discomfort zone in our day to day or as kids, as you mentioned, how that informs how we approach discomfort zones out in nature as well.

Gerry James
How we approach it out in nature. Yeah, I mean, I it’s what led me to like the AC, the American Canoe Association is…

You know, there’s a lot of like, there’s like, like for like a lot of times for like the outdoor world, there’s this notion of like,

You don’t want people don’t want formalized like training. There’s this like I did it. I did it myself. I kind of like became this like, you know, really awesome climber, really awesome paddler, skier by myself. You know, I could get the skills and there’s some people like, you know, as an athlete. So when they grew up playing sports all my life, there is like natural ability, you know, strength, speed, agility, you know, andmthe mental acuity to break down scenarios. there’s some natural things that come, natural talents that come. But then also there’s a lot of coaching that is needed to cultivate raw talent or raw skill into something that’s refined. And so for me, as I’m progressing in my paddling career,

there are opportunities that like I need to learn more, know, so I’m like willing to learn from other people because it’s, and it’s also a danger thing too, you know, like where learning with like instructors or learning and like with people that are like very like highly skilled than you, there’s an opportunity to like be in a safe somewhat environment. There’s a, can experiment and do things that like versus just like getting it, you know, just doing it yourself.

But that’s interesting. Like I remember, now that I’m an instructor, I remember like, there’s this like cave run lake. It’s like a dam or it’s a lake in Kentucky. And it’s a US Army Corps lake that has like a dam. And so there’s the outflow from the dam and produces waves and stuff like that. So I was out there, I got this little sponsorship from Boat Boards.

And I took the board out there, had my wetsuit, and I was like out there like in the outflow from the dam in these big waves and stuff like that, doing some dangerous stuff or like on the Ohio River. Like whenever the river flows over out there in the middle of winter, like paddle boarding stuff, pushing the limits, doing some cool stuff. did I, if I at the time, if in that, you know, the dam outflow situation,

Did I have the skills to do a swift, if something would happen to swift, rescue myself. I, you those, it’s a really, yeah. So anyways, I just think back to those moments of where I was pushing limits, cool stuff, but yeah, but then as I became more skilled and learning from other people, it’s helpful, it’s helpful. So I don’t know if I answered your question.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, well, I love that you mentioned like looking back because I think we all have those. I definitely have some moments in my life where I was getting into something and like paddled a river and it was doing cool stuff, but I didn’t necessarily understand the consequences or even a lot about risk management, to be honest. And so

It’s interesting because in relationship to the discomfort zone, sometimes we’ve been in, and I don’t think I’ve talked about this on the show, but sometimes we’ve put ourselves in situations that didn’t feel uncomfortable in the sense of we didn’t understand the full weight of the situation or the possible consequences and outcomes. I can remember…

This is vulnerable to share actually, but I can remember taking my young brother and his friends to the river. I was working at the kitchen of the rafting company in Quebec. had some kayaking experience. I was very new and the river was really low, but I had them all. We all swam across the channel, this little channel, no life jackets, nothing. These were kids. They were like,

10, like 11. And looking back, I always think about that. Like, what were you thinking? Well, I wasn’t thinking and I didn’t even know and nothing bad happened. They had an amazing time actually. But now that I have more training and obviously as you know, I’m training other folks to assess risk, it’s like, my gosh, there’s an element of luck there. So what’s interesting is like,

what something could easily, and we see that all the time, right? Out in the world, there’s people without PFDs going out. They think it’s all fun and games and they’re not like, people are quick to judge and roll their eyes, but you don’t know what you don’t know. Like if you’re not in the world of paddling and you don’t, have people in your network who understand life jackets or really what the risk is, it can be easy to be like, woohoo, we’re going out. And then it goes downhill fast. And I’ve just been lucky. And actually, Adam Herzog mentioned that on his episode with me as well. But yeah, we need to stop judging because we’ve all probably been there where things could have gone downhill.

Gerry James
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s, yeah, that’s it. That’s yeah. That’s interesting. Yeah. Like it’s like interesting. Cause like, I was preparing for the show, just thinking back to like things I’ve done that it’s like risky and uncomfortable, but at the, at the moment it wasn’t, it was like, you know, or in the discomfort zone. And like, I think back to like, like I said, like that Morehead moment I had like, you know, just my inflatable belt PFD you know, in a dry suit and like that, mean, I’m sorry, wet suit and that was appropriate because it was like a warmer time, but like was, you know, and then, or I think really actually the more dangerous when I think about is like the paddle boarding in a frozen river. I didn’t have a dry suit. All I had was like a, like a wet suit and I didn’t, I had on like my belt PFD I didn’t have, I should have had. So like, yeah, there’s interesting. And like, I like what you said about like judging. I feel like a lot of times in our outdoor community and just trying to go back to your theme, because it ties into my work, but discomfort zone is the judging. Especially because it’s like you said, we’ve all been there and it can be alienating to new outdoor users that want to come into our space because they might feel judged.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. yeah. There’s a lot of that. Or I think there can be a lot of that. And for folks listening who aren’t paddlers, when we say belt pack PFD, it’s like an inflatable PFD, like what you would have on an airplane, but it’s in like a little, almost like a fanny pack that you can pull to inflate, which obviously only works if you’re conscious and

If you fall in the water, doesn’t automatically float you, which is why in some situations it’s not ideal. In the stand up paddle world where it’s really hot, there are some situations where it is very appropriate to wear. yeah. Yeah. When you were getting into kayaking and then becoming an instructor, what was your experience of, you know,

the gear, the judgment and any of that.

Gerry James
Yeah, the big thing was just like the money, you know, like I think I’ve told you before, but like how I got into it was working summer camp down in Texas for Pine Cove camps. And we we we the part of the summer I once part of the summer I did at a fixed camp where we were in like one location. Then the rest of the summer I did a camp that traveled around Texas and stuff, setting up camps in different cities. And so we stopped in Waco, Texas, and we, for a break, you we did laundry there, and then there was the Brazos River. And so there was a paddleboard outfitter there. And so I’d never really done it before. I had some exposure like surfing, growing up in New Jersey, but never had really seen paddleboarding in person. And so I leap to the opportunity.

I was like, this is fun, paddling down the river and stuff like that. And so when I got back home or when I got back home or got back to school, I tried to figure out like, where am I going to paddleboard? Like, how am I going to do? know, a dorm, like where? And so then I graduated college and there’s this dude, Chuck from White Caps Up, and I rent paddleboards for him. And that was a barrier for me, is the money.

was like trying to figure out how to get a board, how to store it. so luckily Chuck was like, dude, he’s like, you’re in this board so often. He’s like, I’m just going to, he let me, he didn’t let me keep it, but he let me hold on to one of his boards for like, like a long, a long term, like a long time, you know, for free, which was really cool. but yeah, like as far as the gear, like the judgment, was like, because I had like, and we’re jumping around, I’m jumping around because I had like a platform of like promoting outdoor creation.

You know, I created a social media campaign, Explore Kentucky when I was in college. so because that like had taken off and had followers on Instagram and you know, was getting more like people were interviewing me as a great outdoorsman type stuff. People were judging me because they’re like, because I’m like, you know, I didn’t have all the gear. They’re like, how does this guy have this platform? That’s what it was. How does this guy have this platform? And he’s not even like an expert. He hasn’t, he hasn’t paid his dues you know, and did all these like first ascents and all this type of stuff. And that really wasn’t what I was trying to do. I was just, didn’t even know what was going to pop off. I just was trying to like get people outside, see the CR region, you know, for its beauty and stuff. So that was, that was interesting. It was like to be judged, you know, for that, you know, and yeah, the gear thing is a big deal, you know, I think in any pursuit you pursue, there’s like, that type of, like if you’re into knitting, there people that are gonna judge your knitting setup and your knitting room, like, and stuff like that, so, yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, it’s true. is, I think it’s a, can be human because the ego wants to position you relative to others. And so like that’s part of assessing threats and opportunities in terms of the brain’s function. So I think it is normal. think the challenge and it, this can be a discomfort zone in and of itself is having the self-awareness to step back and, and get curious.

Like, am I feeling this way? Why am I judging? is what I, you know, is my, I think, worldview.

You know.

Is it the truth, you know, or is it, so what’s going on? And I think for me, sometimes self-awareness or like diving into self-awareness can be a real discomfort zone because it requires us to take a look at ourselves. So that’s a whole other discomfort zone.

Gerry James
Yeah, for sure.

Anna Levesque
For sure. So what is your, cause you do a lot of different, well, I don’t know, different work. do some kayak, you do some sup and kayak instruction. You do a lot of, you do work in the DEI space and then in the legislative space. What is, what do you, in your work, what is your biggest discomfort zone?

Gerry James
I think my biggest comfort zone is when you do a lot of different things, people judge you. And it really, that makes my skin crawl because it makes you feel like that you’re a failure. And yeah, because it’s like, think in our society, specialization is really prized. And I think, and I’m going to give a sports analogy, is like,

A lot of times, like when I was growing up,

Being a well-rounded athlete was a big thing. I did baseball, did football, I did soccer, I ran track. I did sports, I just loved sports in general. I did theater as well, science club. I was very well-rounded.

And then I had I did have my passions like I did love soccer, you know, so I pursued that passion, you know, into college and stuff. But like. Nowadays for youth sports, it’s very specialized, like by like, you know, first grade, you need to have figured out what sports want to play by like fifth grade, you need to specialize in your position, you know. You know.

By this, you need to have your trainer and all these different things. so these sports were created for fun. Your sports was about fun. There’s a lot of specialization in it it pushes the joy out of sports now for kids, I think sometimes. that’s an analogy in my life is like where we only have one life to live and I want to explore the world and explore different things. And also I see them as tools is it like, see, I value intersectionality. like the reason, like why I became a paddle sports instructor wasn’t necessarily because I thought I was like the most like technical, like expert in paddling. I became an instructor because I wanted to provide access to folks like me, to be able to cope, to go back and like replicate the love and passion for, for paddle sports. And that’s saying that other structures don’t do that.

I think a lot of structures, they are in that space. That’s a mantra that a lot of us in structure carry. But there are some that they, whereas I’m the most technical, I’m a technical expert and this is what I want to do. But for me, was to build more, build, I’m really focused on building community. The reason why I study communications and science is because I wanted to marry communications and environmental science together.

So understand the science, but then understand how to tell the story. So that’s my goal, know, or those are things like comms and science and the physical, like the instruction, you know, and then like, okay, now we have that piece. Now there’s only so much that I can do, what we and you can do as like people, as individual people.

There’s only so much that we can do is like with philanthropic dollars to improve outdoor assets. Okay. What’s the next thing we need legislation. We need the advocacy to round out the ecosystem to do things like happen. You know, the, like the other day, like, you know, the Nullichucky river, like, the CSX, rebuilding the rail line in the river in the, the impact they were having on the river and not falling like, you know, certain environmental regulations was stopped because of advocacy of the paddling community in the environmental community and stuff like that. So like, or like, you know, programs like the Outer Creation Legacy Partnership Grant Program that funds like outer assets. So like, I see all those things as intersectional as a shared ecosystem, but for other people, they can see it as like, you know, very scattered or very like across.

So that’s what makes me crawl is having to justify why I’m in these different spaces. Why am I showing up for the White Water Club meeting, but then I’m also going to Kimba, the Kentucky Mountain Bike Association, or stuff like that. Yeah, so anyways, I’ll stop there, because I have a few others.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Well, I can relate with that even in my business because just this morning, marketing person who’s great, she was like, we really need to figure out the message of what you’re doing because you do so many things. And so I can really relate to that. I love whitewater kayaking, but I also love yoga and Ayurveda and holistic health also love mental agility. so, you know, yeah, I’ve run class four whitewater kayaking trips. also run Ayurvedic cleanses, you know, which seem to have like no relationship at all, but they do because when you feel good in your body, you feel good in your mind, like everything is connected and then you can feel better on the water. So I can really relate to that. And so thank you for bringing that up. And I also something you said about building community. And I think that’s a question that I get a lot is how do you build community? Like people are always asking that. And I think that’s a discomfort zone for a lot of folks. So what are your strategies? Like what would be like, since it’s a passion of yours and it’s something you do a lot and I’ve experienced you creating community actually, I’ve been fortunate enough to be to now be in a few communities that you’ve created. And so what are some strategies that you can share with folks?

Gerry James
Yeah, mean, intentionality is key. Don’t come in. Just be real and tell people what you’re trying to do. Be genuine.

And just be honest about like what the extent of what you can do like that. Like, for example, Well, the outdoor assets work or I can use our example with our paddle sports, you know, Academy community. We went in knowing like. We need to do intentional outreach to like, you know, underserved communities that wouldn’t normally maybe see a paddle sports instruction come down there in their inbox or in their mailbox or wherever it is because of the way the ecosystem of the paddling community, the venues. it’s like thinking about the strategic venues of where we’re talking to people, not just like these forums or Facebook groups or the outdoor store we’re going to, the Hispanic grocery store or partnering with communities or organizations of color.

Et cetera. I think it’s intentionality, thinking about the strategic venues of where you want to engage people. And then also shutting up, maybe not shutting up, but being quiet and listening to people’s needs. Because it’s like, a lot of times in this Outdoor Assets work and how historically it has been, it’s been a system of benevolence of we’re helping the poor disenfranchised.

But those folk, they have been doing the work for years. So listen to what they need and figure out how you can help them build communities. So that’s kind of meandering, but that’s how I think about it is go in with some ideas, but be willing to meld, because other people might have ideas and stuff as well.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. Their intentionality with outreach is so important. I think that’s what, you know, when folks ask me about creating community. I think what, in my experience, I think what stops people is the discomfort zone of reaching out to someone you don’t know or reaching out to someone that you’re not sure if you’re gonna relate with or reaching out to, yeah, because it’s vulnerable to reach out. And regardless of like the group or the person or…

you whoever you’re reaching out to. And I think we get stopped. I think sometimes when people say, I want to build community, well, it’s, they expect it to be something that happens to them. Like, well, I’m just putting it out there that I want community. And so somehow magically people are going to come to me. And even I’ve seen businesses who want to like expand their reach. You know, they’ll say, well, we see ourselves as welcoming. We, you know, we’ve put it out there.

but it’s just not working. And the missing piece is typically the actual taking action, going outside of your regular network and talking to people. And that is scary for sure. And it’s just like facing a rapid, you might be running. It’s the same thing. It’s okay to be scared. If you really are committed to it, then you can be scared and do it anyway. And you might…

make mistakes, you might miss an Eddie, you might miss a line along the way, but in general, the work that you’re doing will help you grow and build community. And also the other thing is people give up and because it’s vulnerable and scary to reach out to folks, I feel like it can be easy to want to give up too early. Like, so-and-so didn’t accept my invitation or that strategy didn’t work. And they’re like, screw it, this is too hard.

Gerry James
Yeah, I agree with that. Like not realizing that sometimes it takes people time to build. It takes you to build trust. So it’s like, you know, like I remember like one of the participants in our Academy, like reaching out to them, they had some skepticism because like there was another group that was cultivating them as well. And they had some trepidation about like why that group was cultivating them. And so it took some time, like a little bit of time to like win them over and explain like, hey, like

We’re not just trying to recruit you for a number. We’re trying to recruit you because we see you doing some things and we want to invest in you to help you go on to do the things that you want to do. And that person who you know, you might know I’m talking about has gone on to do like Ted talks and all kinds of really cool stuff. So yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yep, exactly. And so not giving up. what would you, when you’re reaching out, because I know you, and maybe it’s not a discomfort zone to you because you tend to reach out a lot. Well, what are some things that you think about when you’re reaching out to folks and how do you work through the fear of reaching out to folks?

Gerry James
Yeah, it’s still, even though I do a lot of outreach, it’s still, it’s a discomfort because the unknown of like how people will take it. Like why, why? Cause like people are naturally like, why this person reached me out to me? Like they want something. And so it’s like when I’m reaching out, it’s like, I’m trying to, I try to like, you know, meditate a little bit and like close my eyes and like go into this and go into this with your pure mind. I want to work with you. You’re doing cool stuff. I’m doing cool stuff. Let’s collaborate. That’s how I try to like reset my brain. So when I go into that conversation, I’m like relaxed, you know, and I’m like flowing. And I also try to like, when I’m talking, like also try to shut off the outside noise too. So like really lock in. And also like another thing that helps is taking notes. I think that really helps, especially for myself. And then I think also for the other person to show that intentionality. of like of the notes because then you’re like following up they’re like okay I’m doing this and you’re like you know writing it down like okay so it shows like hey like I want to I’m investing in you and I want to keep track of what you’re saying you know and it makes you slow down too so they were not like response response you know yeah

Anna Levesque
Yeah, and you mentioned that at the beginning of our conversation, how for you, your brain goes like a million miles a minute. And so, you know, that you have learned a strategy for yourself. And it’s, because you mentioned solving problems, but also what I’m hearing you say is that those strategies of slowing down help you connect with folks more effectively as well.

Gerry James
Yeah, they do. They do, for sure. I’ve had to learn. So it’s not saying like, I’m not saying that I’m like all the way like good at it, but I’m like getting much better and growing in it, you know?

Anna Levesque
Yeah, well, that’s the idea, right? We keep growing. There’s always something more to learn. yeah, it’s like what I tell my instructor candidates, right? The best instructors think of themselves as a student first, I think, so that, you know, it’s not about having all the answers. It’s about…

being present and problem solving like you’re saying, and coming up with strategies to connect and to help folks get to where they want to go.

So.

So when you’re facing your fear, you’ve talked about this a little bit. I just want to come back to it. When you’re facing fear or discomfort, we’ve talked about slowing down is a helpful tool for you. And you even mentioned writing notes when you’re in conversation with someone. Do you do journaling at all? Is that part of your strategy for facing fear or working through stuff?

Gerry James
Yeah, is. Like I have like Apple Pencil and like where can sketch things, write things down, physical notebooks. And I use like a lot of note cards too. So I have like a lot of like writing stuff. Sometimes I go back to it. Sometimes I don’t. Sometimes it’s like, it’s not a point of going back to it, but it’s a point of imprinting it into your brain. You know, because it’s like, you we live in a digital society, so we process a lot of text.

But writing it down, can help imprint it in my brain more. So yeah, writing is a big thing for me, for sure.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any other techniques that you want to share for like facing fear when you’re feeling nervous or in any situation?

Gerry James
Yeah, I think, facing fear. Breathing for sure. Yeah, I remember like…was it last the summer before last I did the Lower Salmon crap i forget the river

Anna Levesque
Yeah, the Lower Salmon in Idaho or the snake?

Gerry James
Yeah. And yeah, we did the Lower Salmon to the Snake River, on a team river runner. I helped create like a team river. The team river is like a veterans organization that uses the rivers, like what paddle sports to help veterans heal. So we create like an affinity clinic that gets veterans out, like veterans of color, veterans from underserved communities, like the El Sacreya community, on trips.

And so we did like Lower Salmon at snake river and like that was the biggest water I’ve ever been on in my life and There’s a lot of discomfort that there was some discomfort that I had And I had to like break things down piece by piece like, you know, like

Breathing was a big deal, like before I went through certain rapids. Also really focusing on reading the water and also to modeling other folk, like look what other folks were doing and really intensely. And I think some of the other things too were like, like worrying, like I was like worrying about people too, you know, that are going through this experience that had like no, didn’t have like a lot of experience as well. And so like, it was just a lot of like, in my head like breathing, calculating, slowing things down, know, slowing the experience down. like after like kind of the first day, like I felt pretty good, you know. Yeah, yeah. And then also like, also trying to like drown out the self doubt and judgment. There’s a lot of self judgment of like where you’re like, I’ve been paddling for like this long and but I haven’t done this and this and this and then like realizing like

It’s okay. Like at the end of the day, like your paddle journey is your paddle journey. You live where you live. So there’s like different opportunities to you. There’s like different, they, yeah. So it’s.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, well, like you said, when there’s intersectionality or when you’re into different, lots of different things and you have different passions, I think that’s the one thing to remind. I know I need to remind myself that, well, yeah, I haven’t done these things, but I’ve done these other things because I dedicated time and energy to these other things that mean a lot to me. And so…

Keeping that big picture in mind is important, think, as well. Otherwise, yeah, we just can be so hard on ourselves, especially if you’re a high performer. And of course, comparing yourself. I love what you said about modeling others. think that, like the idea of modeling, like when you see someone that’s doing something that you’re like, I would like to be doing that. I think it is important instead of like being, what’s the word, not jealous, but…

Anna Levesque
What’s the other word for jealousy?

I can’t remember. But anyways, instead of being jealous or having like, diminishing yourself, you could be like, whoa, that’s really cool. Celebrate them. then, no, it’s not resentment. Yeah. Yes, in, it’s in video. I’m thinking of the Spanish word now. Anyway, I can’t remember.

Gerry James
Is it like resentment maybe? Envious?

Anna Levesque
Envious, yes. Instead of being envious of that person to really celebrate, be like, whoa, that’s so cool that they’ve done that. And then to model that and learn from them is a really, I think, positive and keeps you looking where you want to go. Instead of turning inward and being hard on yourself for not being there and jealous of them because they’ve done this thing. So I really appreciate that you like worded it that way, like role model that. And that also you bring up a good point of as leaders, what we role model is important because people might be watching to try and learn. so, you know, that’s huge too.

Gerry James
Yeah, for sure.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

All right, do you have any questions for me?

Gerry James
Yeah, a lot.

Anna Levesque
or a question.

Gerry James
I do. it’s like a personal, it’s like how, what are you in the wake of like the hurricane? How has your life changed? and what do you think’s next for the region? I’m just curious about everything that’s happening there and how folks can support like the region support. Yeah. Yeah. Just curious about that.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, that’s a big question. I feel very lucky our neighborhood fared well compared to other neighborhoods. We didn’t have electricity for a week and we didn’t have potable water for 53 days. There were challenges with that. However, I feel really lucky. In my neighborhood,

It almost feels like back to normal, except there are still some water cubes out, know, where people for like water cubes popped up. There was so much community support and resources, which was really cool. The church, there were showers down at the church that were walkable. The church dug, like, or I don’t know if they dug a,access to their well and people can still fill up water there out of the parking lot. So there was so much community action. And this is my personal experience. And then of course there were paddlers and like, the thing is wherever your community was is what you’re into, right? So there’s people down in the Green River Gorge. They were really hard hit and they’re still so…

their day-to-day compared to my day-to-day is completely different. Same thing with people who were in Swannanoa and people lost their homes and they’ve been displaced. so, you know, there are some businesses have closed their doors, some businesses are relocating, you know. And so it really depends on the person and how hard you were hit. I think in general, people have come together

And as you mentioned, the Nola Chucky, there’s been a lot of, it just goes to show grassroots community. That’s what really made a difference. People taking action in whatever way they, some people were more boots on the ground. Some people were more donating. Some people were volunteering in different ways. So it did get me volunteering and

Every time I volunteer, I mean, I was hanging out with the National Guard, volunteering, I mean, hanging out. We were volunteering, but it was nice to, again, to reach out. So I would try and start conversations. I enjoy volunteering because I am typically volunteering with, and even volunteering outside of the paddling community. Like I was volunteering for organizations within Asheville. And so was meeting different community members and I really appreciate that. And there are still,

know, folks displaced and when you drive down to the River Arts District, it’s or into Biltmore Village, you can’t drive into Biltmore Village or along this Swannanoa. It’s completely devastating. mean, there’s, you know, and there’s people who drive past those things on their commute to work every day still are living in them. So I feel very lucky. I think what’s next for the region in terms of it’ll be interesting for my business. I’m hopeful.

to be able to kayak instruct next summer and this spring and summer. Some rivers haven’t changed. There’s obviously rivers like the green that are most likely off the table. And there are other rivers that I think will be back online and maybe we need to be a little more cautious. And obviously some rivers where the rapids have changed, but I’m very hopeful.

And so I think that’s good. And I think there’s still a lot of organizations like Beloved Asheville that’s doing a lot of amazing work that can still use donations and volunteers. And there’s many different organizations.

Gerry James
Yeah, I was curious about the impact on your business and recreation and stuff like that. Yeah, then I was curious, what do you feel is, yeah, especially River Arts District and stuff. And I think also, what is okay? Is it okay for folks to visit the region?

Like, yeah, so there’s a lot of things because I helped out with the devastating tornado that went through Western Kentucky or went through our state so bad that Biden came and there’s still rebuilding years later. And so it’s like to know what was the extent of what people can because it’s like you’re

Anna Levesque
Definitely.

Gerry James
That area, a particular area where I helped out, Mayfield is not a heavy tourism region. It’s heavy agriculture. But for y’all, y’all’s region, Asheville and stuff, is a heavy tourism region. So many people come there. Should they not? Or should they? Because I seen an online deal. It like, we’re back open. And I was like, are y’all ready? I was like, really? Is that the message?

Anna Levesque
Yeah, think, well, I think it’s the message because I think a lot of businesses in Asheville rely on tourism and that’s just a fact. And without that, other businesses can’t, like it’s all a web of interconnectivity, right? So if no one comes to visit and those businesses all go under, then other businesses not related to the tourism industry are going to go under because like they’re, you know, it’s interconnected. know, downtown,

Things are open. mean, yeah, my parents were just visiting from Canada for Thanksgiving and, you know, we ate dinner downtown, West Asheville. We went and saw the winter lights at the NC Arboretum. It was beautiful. You know, there’s plenty of things to do. You know, people don’t necessarily want people just, you know, trying to drive down the switchbacks on the Green River, which are not even, you know, completely rebuilt to like just go recreate while people are struggling down there. So there’s definitely ways to be thoughtful about it. And that’s just like anything, like our actions have an impact. So whatever you’re about to do, you can think about what’s the wider impact.

Anna Levesque
But I think that, and for the River Arts District, I don’t know, because I’m not that involved with that associate. There’s a whole association and I’m hoping that people will be more thoughtful about rebuilding in the floodplain, but we’ll see.

Yep. Yeah.

Gerry James
I guess another question is like

What are synergies you see between all the countries that you’ve traveled to, worked in, when it comes to the outer creation, outer access? Like Canada, I believe you were in South America. How can we work, how can there be some national or shared synergy?

We have this thriving outdoor economy in America, in the US, and this eco policy ecosystem. And I know those countries do too, but not to the same scale. what can we do? How can we work together? Are there some, I don’t know.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, that’s a great question. One is to recognize that there are economies in other countries and thriving. For instance, in Mexico, in the state of Veracruz, there are at least 10 rafting companies that are operating, servicing Mexican nationals who are on vacation going rafting. And then same thing in…

in other, like in Costa Rica, a lot of it is more international. Well, in my experience, what I like, you I always thought it was really cool in Veracruz and Jalcomulco, how there was a thriving industry that serviced Mexican nationals. It was not a foreign tourism. And that’s really cool. And I think that, you know, yeah, folks in the U S reaching out to those folks and

And again, kind of like you mentioned earlier, it’s not about the folks from the U S going in and be like, let me teach you something. It’s more like, y’all are doing this in this environment. Like what could we learn from you? You know, and, and again, I think. Yeah. Having opportunities to share conferences and stuff. But again, there’s the price tag for that. That can be challenging. And then there’s other tourism.

that caters to foreigners come in. And I’ll say generally Westerners because in the great grand scheme of things, there are wealthy people everywhere in all countries for sure, but there are more people in the Western world, Canada, US, Europe, who have disposable income and the bandwidth to recreate.

And I think that…

So again, there’s a ton of interconnectivity of what’s going on in the wider political system economy that has people have that leisure time and money, and also that drives them to want to be in that discomfort zone of like recreating for fun. And in the sense what I mean by discomfort zone, it’s fun, but it’s still putting yourself in a discomfort zone by choice, right? Challenges by choice. You have to have bandwidth for that as well. So obviously I didn’t totally answer your question.

Always communication is important. How can we get related and learn from each other, I think, is important.

Gerry James
Yeah, I I brought it up because it’s just like in your travels, you’re well traveled and going to like, like, like you’re right in America and like art in the US, like recreation is seen. It’s a luxury or like outer access is like a luxury or bicycling is a luxury. It’s Lycra and like, you know, POC expensive helmets and the sunny, you know, all that stuff. But when I go to like other countries,

It’s not just it’s a way of life. It’s it’s multimodal transportation. It is, you know, getting to the store, getting to recreation, getting to church, getting to all these different spaces, using a bicycle, using trails and stuff like that. And so like that’s where I’m kind of curious. Yeah, like the learning, the learning there. Like if there’s some like I went to Canada, you know, and like seeing like it was like interesting. I saw like bicycle signs on the on the highway.

Like we were on like the Trans Canada or whatever, out of Vancouver. And I was like, there’s a bicycle, I was like, this is like on the, you know, in the U S so equivalent of like bike on a dag interstate. Like you could, I guess you can bike on the shoulder. And I was like, that’s kind of interesting.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, because that Trans Canada is a two-lane, two-laner all the way.

Gerry James
Yeah, or like on Vancouver Island between Tofini, Tofino, I think it’s Tofini. And then I forget the other town. There’s another town on the other end of the island. There’s a, and then there’s Pacific Rim, the National Park. There’s a bikeway that’s like, I think like over 80 kilometers that connects those communities. And I’m like, that’s super cool to think about that. And, you know,

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm, Tofino.

Gerry James
So anyways, I just wondered like, from your travels, like learning, yeah, but yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, I would say that’s true, but there’s also like Costa Rica. There are people like Costa Ricans, they are way into sports. Like in Turialba, they are triathletes. They have all the lycra. They have all the fancy. Like, you know, there is that as well in all countries, you know, people who, again, it’s a matter of having the bandwidth, both economically and mentally to be able to do and physically to be able to do that.

Yeah, have rapid fire. So these are meant to be answered in like a word or a sentence. So number one, what is a morning ritual that sets you up for success?

Gerry James
Bells and waffle.

Raspberry yogurt and bicycle ride.

Anna Levesque
Nice. What’s a non-negotiable self-care practice?

Gerry James
air like needing to step out, needing to step outside like I just can’t, yeah I just can’t, I can’t just can’t sit all day I need to like step outside like so yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. What’s a favorite motivational or inspirational book or talk?

Gerry James
Looking up, because the book’s up there.

It is Landscapes Exclusion Jim Crow in the American South and it has to do with like black state parks so knowing the legacy of like that there’s blacks you know segregated state parks for black folk where the park managers Rangers and lots of like that it gives you inspiration because like there’s this you know stereotypes that black people didn’t get outside and so knowing that

There’s reasons for that stereotype, but there’s also legacies that were hidden. And so this book is really cool. It examines all these different state parks all across the region that were curated for Black folk from the Jim Crow era through desegregation. So that book is inspiring for me to see how far we’ve come and what we’ve fought for when it comes to recreational access in this country, from state parks to wait-ins for beaches and stuff to deserter beaches. So yeah, that book is really important for me. Sorry, that was a rapid fire. It is land, let me make sure I do Dr. O’Brien right, because know I’m in person. Landscapes with exclusion. Landscapes, me go to the right. Landscapes with exclusion, state parks and Jim Crow in the American South.

Anna Levesque
No, that’s great. What’s the title of the book again?

Gerry James
by Dr. William O’Brien.

Anna Levesque
Okay, got it. Okay, what do people get wrong about you?

Gerry James
So people still think I live in the woods. I used to live in the Red River Gorge. I was rock climbing, stuff like that. And I lived in really austere environments. So some people, they don’t know that I have a house. They still think that I’m running around in the woods and stuff like that, and living out of my car. Because this place I lived, we didn’t have an indoor kitchen. We had an outdoor kitchen. camp stoves and stuff and like one communal bathroom type stuff. So some people still think that I’m like, cause I, cause of the social media stuff, some people just now realize like, you, you know, I’m like, yeah, it’s really funny. yeah.

Anna Levesque
Okay. Over the course of your life, have you felt like the underdog or the favorite to win?

Gerry James
Boom.

Underdog, underdog for sure. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
hard moves in easy water or flooding.

Gerry James
hard moves in easy water.

Gerry James
I don’t know when you say flooding.

Anna Levesque
Just like hard moves in easy water is like one Eddie at a time or working in a growing your skills in a more kind of safe environment, having a progression and flooding is just like going for it. Like the river is flooded, I’m jumping on.

Gerry James
Okay, yeah, I like fast water. So it’s like, so like the old Jerry would say like, just go and do it. But like now like I have things to live for. I’m always Yeah, so like I think like, yeah, progression, skill progression.

Anna Levesque
Hard moves, easy water. What’s one word that describes your comfort zone?

Gerry James
swag? No, no, no, no, that’s not the right one.

style.

Anna Levesque
Okay, got it. Freedom through discipline or I do what I want.

Gerry James
freedom through discipline.

Anna Levesque
In one word, what do you hope your legacy will be?

Anna Levesque
Is there anything else that you want to tell our listeners Gerry?

Gerry James
yeah, just like continue doing good work out there. read, do research, use your voice, you know, write, write letters to the editor, write op-eds, get engaged in community groups, knock on doors, go to your legislature, go to your city council meetings. think about where you could open your pocketbook up to support people and movements.

And like always try to keep growing and learning as a person, like, you know, getting rid of like racism, getting rid of misogyny, getting rid of like, you know, intense competitiveness or like, you know, the rat race, like just try to continue to grow those things.

Anna Levesque
Thanks for that, Jerry. Thanks for taking the time to be here. I appreciate you. And yeah, look forward to next time we get to hang out.

Gerry James
Cool.