Anna Levesque
Hi everyone, welcome back to the show. I took a few week break as I was in Costa Rica running my whitewater kayaking and yoga week of rivers in Costa Rica and then spent a week or 10 days at the beach, up paddleboard surfing with my husband who is my guest today. Welcome Andrew. Yeah, happy to have you back. So Andrew.

Andrew Holcombe
Thanks for having me back.

Anna Levesque
was my guest on my second episode ever. And I remember I was so nervous recording that episode. I was definitely in my discomfort zone. And it’s nice to have you back. Now that I have 50 episodes under my belt, this will be episode 51, which is really exciting. So thanks for being back and for being willing to talk about discomfort in relationships, which is really, I mean, we look at it from

that vantage point because we are married. And I think this year will be our 18th wedding anniversary. And we dated for seven years before that. And for those of you who don’t know the story, Andrew and I met while we were on the international competition circuit. He was on the US freestyle team. I was on the Canadian freestyle team. We met and decided that we liked each other. And I feel like we’ve created a really

amazing life together full of adventure and discomfort. And yeah, it’s great to be on it to have authentic conversations because I know relationships are important to all of us and how can we create good, sustainable, fun, adventurous, prosperous, loving relationships. And we just spent

three days of high discomfort zone together considering that we were flying back from Costa Rica. And two of our flights from Atlanta to Asheville got canceled, so we had to navigate that. How was that for you?

Andrew Holcombe
Yeah. Now I just felt like Atlanta had my number. So I was grumpy because I flew down in the first snowstorm that Atlanta has had in like seven years and then flew back in the second snowstorm that Atlanta has had in seven years. So I was feeling, attacked. Yeah. By, by, by Atlanta. Yeah. The man, no, not by you. wasn’t feeling attacked by you. It just says.

Anna Levesque
attacked by Atlanta, by the snow, or by me.

Andrew Holcombe
It’s crappy when you’re traveling and that stuff doesn’t go right. Cause you just don’t have that many options sometimes. And you kind of just have to sit there and take it. know, like that’s what’s really difficult is you really don’t have control over hardly anything. You know, like that was a good example. We landed, our flight is canceled.

You can’t do anything really, you know, you can get on and like make some reservations and look for stuff. But in that case, like everyone was doing that. So the wifi, the cell signal was crappy and you know, then you trying to get your bag and then you have to sit in security and like, there’s just all these things that you can’t control that suck in that moment. And so, it’s just a good reminder to like not get pissed off at things that you can’t control.

but it’s very difficult to do that. And then there, and it’s also really easy to like snap at the person that you’re with, because they’re feeling the same things and dealing with that and nobody likes it, know? And so it’s easy to like get mad at like really little things, you know, which we did in that moment, but then usually we’re able to laugh about it like short seconds later. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Yeah, think one of the things that you and I do pretty well for the most part is not take anything personally. Like I remember at one point I said something like, okay, we just have to accept and I was doing like mental agility coaching because that’s what I do for a living. And you turned to me and you’re like something like, I can’t remember what you said, like keep that mental agility crap to yourself or so.

But I can, like, if we didn’t, like, I know you didn’t mean that meanly, like that was your way of like, I don’t want to hear it. And because we both have similar, we’re very different, but in the sense we have similar personalities where we like put up a wall sometimes of like, like, cause I know that you know what you, everything you just said that there’s things you can’t control, but hearing it from me, you just don’t want to hear it from me, right? And so I don’t take that personally from you. I just can laugh internally and say, okay, and externally be like, okay, I won’t say anything else. And, you know, just let us have our moments. It was the same when we were in Costa Rica and we were surfing together. And, you know, I really enjoy being out there with you. Sometimes I like to get a little bit of distance because at one point you were…

You’d be like, oh, there’s a good wave, go for it. And then in my mind, start getting all, my mind starts racing. Like I do much better if I’m identifying the waves myself and like that, know, turning and you know, paddling. And at one point, you know, I didn’t catch a wave or I felt like it was your fault because you were like, go, go, go. And then I was trying to brush and then I couldn’t get it. so, but again,

I didn’t want to hear the coaching from you. And actually that’s a really, you know, when we’re in our discomfort zone and we’re close to someone, and I think that can be, you know, partner close or even parent-child close. We just don’t want to hear it from the other person. I don’t know, we take it, we have a different listening of each other. So it’s good to not take that stuff personally.

Andrew Holcombe
Yeah, I mean, it’s hard to do that though, because anytime you’re in a close relationship to somebody, you’re doing something, you’re bringing, you’re bringing whether you want to acknowledge it or not, you’re bringing way more to the table than a normal, an interaction with someone who is not of that relationship status or close status. Like it happens with close friends too. You just have an incomparable and unfathomable amount of experiences with this person.

And it is, as a human, is not possible to leave all that and just not be coming from those interactions. Cause that’s what’s, you know, good and bad. It’s what’s made the relationship. So it’s not a, it’s not like that shouldn’t be happening, but you know, got to remember that. Like when, when you’re in those moments is that, that you are bringing just a huge amount of past experiences along with you and, and, you know, navigating that and yeah, learning to

Yeah, here coaching or developing a system where you can work that out with your partner is good. And I mean, we have ours, we kind of tend to banter a little bit. you’re, I mean, you’re right in that moment. I didn’t want to hear that. I was, I just want to be pissed cause I was stuck in Atlanta again, you know, like, and that’s not what I wanted to do. And like you, you know, we’ve been together long enough. You let me be pissed for a little bit and then it was fine. You know, and, and honestly it worked out great. you know, went to downtown, it was fine. And, you know, came back the next day, I like I canceled again, that sucked. you know, like we worked it out all along, but yeah, no, it’s interesting doing things with someone that you’re very close to and you have a lot of experiences with. I think particularly when you’re in a relationship with that person, because you are dealing with a much wider range of emotions. And, you know, like, that instance on the wave, like, you know, like when I’m talking to you about that, I just want you to have fun and I don’t really care whether you catch the wave or not. just trying, I just want you to have fun doing the thing that we’re doing together. But I also understand, you know, now that I’m 20 something years into being with you, that it doesn’t come across like that a lot of times, you know, and like, wish, part of me wishes I would have understood that a little bit better earlier on in our kayaking career when we were both competing. We talked about that last time. I think I probably could have, it just, there could have been different outcomes, not better or worse. But if I had just understood how those different ranges of emotions play into your interactions and then will cause things to be heard differently than how you’re intending them to be. because like it or not, you are not just another paddling partner of mine. And so it’s gonna be different, you know, and that works both ways. And I don’t know that, I always realize that in the moment, but it is good to reflect on that from time to time and be like, oh yeah, that’s a thing and you just need to be aware of it. And it’s not any different than when you’re standing in an airport security line, like. the thing you say to your partner is gonna come across real different than the same joke that you make to the random person behind you that is, that you’re just trying to have that casual interaction with that. That’s gonna land and be heard completely differently most of the time. anyways.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. like, you know, things I say to a coaching client, they’re going to hear it differently than you’ll hear it, you know. And I think, well, there’s a couple of things. One, when you’re saying it’s good to reflect on how the other person receives, I think what you’re saying. And then there’s also the…

boundaries, think are really important. At least for us, it works to be independent. If I paddle away from you in the lineup, for instance, you don’t take that personally. I just go, right. I just go and find carve out my space. Then there’s times when we do want to be closer together. Same thing when we kayak together. been the type that’s been like, have to, like we watch out for each other for sure. And especially on things that I find scarier, I really appreciate you watching out for me, but I’m not expecting you to like be in every Eddie looking at me all the time. I like we are independent and have enough skill that, and also I’m independent enough to ask like, hey, can you, would you mind sitting in this Eddie? And typically you’re, you know, you’re okay with that.

Or if I asked you to like move down the lineup, I think you would be okay with that. It’s good to, like you said, reflect on your own actions and words, and then also have the independence to set boundaries and to not take boundaries personally. if, also if you, because you you still, you like to paddle, you like to do stuff that I am not really that interested in in terms of like,

difficulty of whitewater or like when we were in Costa Rica, you would go out twice a day surfing and I was very happy with once a day. And yeah, to be able to not have to be with the other person or need the other person to do what you want to do, which can be hard because, you know, we do, sometimes I do get bummed when you’re not with me because I like doing stuff with you.

At the same time, know that it’s important for both of our happiness is to do the things that we each love and not need the other person to be there.

Andrew Holcombe
Yeah, think, mean, yeah, I think you’re, you’re right, but you have to build that over time. Like I don’t know that it was always, always like that. think that probably both of us have some past memories of incredibly high anxiety of doing things with the other person and not really knowing exactly what to do or how to interact or, or, you know, truly getting angry with the other person on the river. mean, I know that’s happened. and not understanding, how to have that set up so that you never get to that standpoint. I think we’re 20 something years deep into doing a range of difficult or challenging things with each other. And it wasn’t always super smooth there at the beginning. There’s a whole range of those experiences that were pretty terrible for us both. you know, while we were figuring what you just talked about out of being able to say, no, I don’t want to do that. And it’s okay that you go and do it. I don’t need to go with you or I’m going to go with you. And it works both ways, but I need you to do this kind of thing. Or when I go do this and then I have this reaction to something, you don’t need to do anything necessarily or fix something. I’m just having a, you know, just sort of have a, know, need to react to it. It’s uncomfortable.

I need to react this way to something like that. And it’s uncomfortable. You know, when people get scared on the river or are not having a good time or something like that, it’s super uncomfortable. and so, you know, you gotta figure out how to work through that or in, something they didn’t really mean to get themselves into. yeah. So, you know, I think having developing those boundaries is, you need to be conscious of it and then also understand that it probably isn’t, it doesn’t happen overnight. just like any good partnership, you know, whether you, whatever you’re in, like any good team that doesn’t just happen. Like there has to be a lot of conscious work into that and a lot of communication. and, I think that that’s really important and often overlooked.

Andrew Holcombe
And you have to have boundaries in the team as well and definitions of what’s going on.

Anna Levesque
Definitely. And it takes debrief, like you said, it takes reflection and conversations and difficult conversations, right? And the not taking things personally is a huge, I think it’s one of the biggest things to practice of really, you listen to the person without taking it personally, really hear them for what they’re saying. And of course it’s hard and

We fail at that sometimes too. But I think that’s when you’re debriefing, again, pulling apart fact from story. And I think for us, we’ve also done a lot of personal development. Some folks do marriage counseling, which we haven’t done, but we’ve been open to it. We’ve done some personal development courses together that have really made a difference and helped us communicate and…

create a common language. so I think that I just want to put that out there to folks too is or have a coach or I don’t know a relationship coach. think, yeah, someone who or some type of program that is like creates a space creates a container to have difficult conversations with your partner and to do personal growth and development. each. That’s the other thing is it’s not always about coming together to do them, but that you have a desire on your own to grow personally so that you can come back into relationship with that person effectively.

Andrew Holcombe
Yeah, I think that’s all. I think that’s true.

Anna Levesque
The other thing I think that sometimes I, because I feel like I can be a pretty serious person, like publicly facing, but you mentioned that we banter a lot. We banter a lot. And I don’t know, it’s because we’re both the oldest child in our families, but we poke at each other and banter a ton. And sometimes I think if, you know, there were a fly on the wall, they’d be like,

what are these grown adults doing? Because we banter a lot and we laugh a lot. And I think that’s also been a very beneficial thing for our relationship. Also, I grew up kind of, I feel like Quebec, French Canadian culture, there’s a lot of banter as well. So I kind of grew up in that space. What do you think?

Andrew Holcombe
I just think it’s fun that you hold onto that part of your heritage. I don’t think that’s necessarily unique to French Canadian culture, but I appreciate that you believe that it is. It is definitely part of it, yeah, but I don’t think it’s unique to that specific, you know, that’s the only culture that does that. Yeah, I mean, and that…

Anna Levesque
Okay. It is.

I’m not taking that personally right now. Ha.

Andrew Holcombe
That’s right. Yeah. Not taking that personally. you know, and that, that’s one way that we’ve, we’ve figured out that works for us. I don’t know that that style is going to work for, for everybody. And it certainly doesn’t work for us in every situation. And we’ve discovered that, that there are times when that is not very effective and you know, can lead to hurt feelings and things like that, as well. And I think that’s like the, you know, just being flexible and generally more relaxed. I mean, we talk about this in our jobs and things that we do is like, never really know what’s actually, a lot of times you don’t really know what’s going on with other people. And you definitely don’t with people you’re not close. And even people that you’re close with, there’s a whole range of things that like it or not, you’re just not aware of.

You know, and so you don’t, you might say something that in any other moment would be like super funny and totally in line with how you act. just in that moment, something strange has happened or they’ve just had a crappy phone call or like, know, and you don’t know, you know, and so like being able to be flexible and understand that is, is I think an important dynamic in that, you know, in that, in all those concepts, regardless of the way that you’ve worked out. And we’ve certainly worked that out. I mean, that’s me jabbing back at you about French Canadian culture right there. like, you know, we’ve worked that out, that that’s kind of a fun way, you know, we interact a little bit like that and it’s fun and it keeps things light for us. And, you know, the airport line is a good example of that. Like that was what was happening there too. Like we’re just kind of messing with each other a little bit, cause we both know that like at the end of the day, like that’s

Not going to be taken. As you’ve said multiple times, it’s not going to be taken personally. like, you know, it’s going to, going to be all right.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Yeah, although I did get a little frustrated when we walked out of the Atlanta airport. It’s like 13 degrees or something. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That you had swiped it somehow. Yeah.

Andrew Holcombe
yeah, and you thought I canceled our Lyft ride? Yeah, and what had happened, like there just weren’t any lift drivers and it had canceled itself, but you were certain that I had done that. Yeah. That I’d somehow like swipe that the wrong way in my technological inability, which is very likely. I totally could have done that, but in that moment I had not.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, but then again, when it comes to that kind of thing, and I start down that path, it’s so important for me to remember, like, okay, like, what, what outcome do I want right now? Do I want to just like create being pissed off? You know, which for no reason really, other than yeah, we’re tired because it’s like midnight. There’s a line of like hundreds of people waiting for lifts because so many flights got canceled. and you know, like how do I and it’s freezing. And I’m not, you know, I have some of the right clothing, but you know, all of that and do I want to, you know, start blaming you for something that’s not your fault? I mean, that just adds like, that just makes the whole whole situation worse. Sometimes I feel like sometimes we get we can get addicted to like being a victim or I should only talk to myself, you know.

I talk about myself that I feel sometimes that pull of sometimes it’s easier to blame someone else when really, yeah, just so you feel better about yourself, which does not make the situation any better. So I’m really grateful to have that awareness. And, you know, I knew that, you know, just coming back around being like, yeah, I know you didn’t do that.

Andrew Holcombe
Well, I mean, even if I did, like I didn’t do it on purpose because that doesn’t help me out in that moment either. And I think that’s the real thing sometimes is it’s, I know for me, sometimes it’s a whole lot easier to be mad and pissed or bitter than it is to like take the next step of like what actually needs to be accomplished to like move something forward. You know, it’s just, it’s just easier.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, what is that about?

Andrew Holcombe
And so you can do that for a little while and it does, there are some probably short-term benefits to that, cause you get it out of your system. But I think the quicker that you realize that’s what you’re doing, for me anyway, the quicker I realize that that’s what I’m doing, the better in the long run it actually becomes. Just like now I shut that down, all I’m doing right now is.

I get all I’m doing is being mad at something that it doesn’t matter because it’s already happened, you know? And so, you know, it’s important to acknowledge that that pissed me off regardless of what was going on. But in the long run, like I do need to move forward somehow. And the sooner that I get to that, the better, the better the outcome and the better I feel. So that, you know, that’s right along with a lot of what we’ve been talking about. you know, in that instance, if for some reason I had actually done that on purpose, like, a, that would be weird and would be a conversation for later. But like in the moment, like, it doesn’t really do that much good to be mad because you’re just getting further and further away from your desired outcome the longer that you’re mad. so recognizing that and being able to shut down that gap and then get to the conversation that you need to have at the appropriate time, which almost all the time in the moment is not actually when you need to do that. If it’s something in a stressful situation, right? Like I’ve noticed that over the years, like the moment to have that difficult conversation often comes afterwards. And in the moment,
resisting blowing up often gets you better results and then it is therefore easier to have that difficult conversation later because you’re not also dealing with the anger component that was introduced in that, is a lot or you know, whatever version of that is, is happening that those are often the most difficult things to diffuse because it often inspires, you know, when somebody gets mad at me, it’s, difficult to not take it personally.

You know, and so I’ve sort of realized that for myself, like if I can shorten that gap a little bit and just kind of get out of that and it helps.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, absolutely. It does help. Like that, like the surf instructor who paddled up to me in the lineup and told me that, that’s sup. Yeah, subs aren’t allowed here and you don’t look like you have very much control on that board. You know, to be able to be like, okay, that’s his stuff. I’m not going to take that on. You know, it was very freeing. Cause I did start to take it on a little bit, even though you and Snowy were there and you all were super supportive and I just said, thanks for your opinion to that guy, because I definitely wasn’t going to give him any more mental space. But then I was starting to, when I went for waves, I would look over because he was sort of in the lineup and it was starting to mess with me a bit. And that’s when I was like, I have got to focus on what is my task in this interaction or in this moment.

And it was to focus on my own skills and what I was doing and having fun. And I was definitely had fine control over the board and that his dislike for stand-up paddleboarders or for me or whatever, that was his stuff and not to take that on. Yeah. In any relationship, like to a certain extent, I think when it’s partnerships, there’s more difficult conversations, obviously, because you care about the person and you work that out.

And then there’s interpersonal relationships that are more with people you don’t even know or casual acquaintances. And I think setting boundaries like that is really important.

Andrew Holcombe
It also just helps you deal with strange situations. I mean, that’s a good example of that guy telling you that, like that was relatively unprovoked. And he just busted that out. And unfortunately, like stuff like that happens all the time. Like you, as humans, you just have awkward or strange or unfortunate interactions, unpleasant interactions with people and working on a way to work yourself out of that and growing within that is a good thing. I mean, because that can really blow you. That is a very unfortunate component of human existence because a comment like that from a stranger can really rip you up. And it is hard to, and you know, it’s hard to deal with that. And so it’s really good to work on

And that’s probably a lifelong thing of kind of letting, not letting people’s, being able to discern the difference between coaching, well-intentioned advice and someone who’s trying to help you, and then someone who’s just trying to like, tear you down for whatever reason. know, like that is a really important distinction and is real difficult to like manage. you know, and, and yeah, I think that’s, that’s a hard thing to do and it’s worth doing. And it’s good to have people in your corner that can help you do that. Cause oftentimes it’s very difficult to tell, when it’s actually happening to you, like which one of those things that might be, even though it seems like it would be really easy. Sometimes it’s, it’s actually not, or, it is really easy, but it’s still affecting you. And so it’s really good to have people in your corner that are like, no, you can do this or you do belong here or there’s nothing you need to not worry about that or like we’ve got your back, whatever it is.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep, absolutely. One of my clients recently shared that she changed up her paddling community and it made a huge difference. And I think it does, like who you’re out there with, especially in like discomfort zones with kayaking, surfing, mountain biking, skiing, whatever it is to have surround yourself with folks. or and be willing to have difficult conversations of like real authentic conversations about what went down and how that affected you. And of course, only with people who have earned your trust, that’s the thing because the people who care will care enough to listen and reflect. And when folks aren’t willing to do that, then that’s when setting boundaries is really key. And I also love how you just brought up like the coaching part and it goes back to when I was trying to coach you in the line in the airport, right? I think being in a relationship is, it’s important to ask, like, do you want coaching? If you’re about to, or even on the river.

You don’t paddle up to someone just because you see them whatever, doing something that you feel they could be doing better, and for you to paddle up and just offer them advice. Again, that’s not your task because it wasn’t asked for. And so I think, yeah, in relationships, both close relationships and relationships that are not as close, I think, not going around coaching people, you know, and I have to watch myself because I’m an instructor, I’m a coach professionally. So that’s been something I’ve learned that I think is really important. Like, do you just want me to listen right now? Do you want to vent or, you know, do you want some coaching or advice or reflections?

Andrew Holcombe
Right? Yeah. And I think, you know, also like everybody has a different opinion on what they’re trying to uphold, you know, and it’s good to recognize that. And it’s good to recognize they might not always that, that what they’re saying might be true to them, but is not true to you. you know, and, you know, the surfing that’s a good example. I, that guy probably very truly believe that stand up paddleboarders should not be out in that. And there are a lot of people that believe that, you know, that they should not be out there because they’re, you know, it’s just different. And the degree to which that is accurate, nobody actually knows that because there are also plenty of surfers who are fricking scary as hell, you know, and don’t have control over their boards and all that. And, you know, me being one of them,

Anna Levesque
now you’re sandbagging.

Andrew Holcombe
And so, yeah, well, but you mean it’s true. Like I’m much more in control on a standup board than I am on a surfboard, you know, and, and, and, you know, for me, what got me about that situation is it just wasn’t the appropriate venue. Like that venue is for learning and it’s very obvious that that’s what’s going on, you know, and

And in the grand schema thing, if someone bothers to look around, they will realize what they have just, that guy, what he had just said to you is not true. Like you, there are plenty of other people out there who have far less control than what you did and are just as big of crafts. It just happens to be the one that he identifies with. So he’s not gonna say anything, you know? And that was, it’s not like, I think that’s an interesting distinction because…

Speaking up when something is happening that shouldn’t be is something that needs to be looked at and evaluated and done. That is a thing, because sometimes people’s lives can depend on that or their well-being. Being able to intervene in an inappropriate or unsafe situation is really important. getting that off a little bit is also equally as devastating. So I think that you are that person asking yourself before you get this bomb dropped out or or call someone, they shouldn’t be there. It’s like, why am I really feeling?

Is also equally as devastating. And so I think if you are that person, like asking yourself before you just bomb drop that on something or tell someone they shouldn’t be there is like, why am I really doing that? You know, like, is this actually truly an unsafe situation or?

Do I just not like this type of thing? And I think that’s a pretty important distinction. And you can take that pretty far. There’s a lot of horrible things that have happened in history because people didn’t speak up. And then there’s a lot of times that are equally as horrible because people did speak up and it was the wrong, it turned out it was kind of an unfortunate way to go.

Anna Levesque
Well, and I think what you’re pointing to is you have, I think it’s important to relationship. Relationship is important. Like connect to the person, you know, or to the situation rather than just, you know, like intervening or saying something to that person, if that makes sense. Like,

when you have no context for the other person or the situation or any history, then it’s like if, you know, the same thing could happen or the same thing does happen in kayaking. Like people make judgments about who’s on what river and whether they should be there or not. And it’s like, if you don’t know, you don’t know the context or the history or what’s going on, you’ve got to like, get to know the situation and the person before thinking that you’re necessarily an authority.

Andrew Holcombe
Yeah. I mean, that’s what I’m saying. Like it’s just difficult to do that. Cause that’s, that’s a lot of people in time and you know, you don’t always want to dedicate that. And like, do that. I make plenty of judgments about people on rivers. you know, and sometimes I voice those and sometimes I don’t, they’re all like learning experiences and you just kind of have to be along for that ride and like, try to grow with yourself. So you’re not, you know, that you’re, you’re helping and you’re not hindering.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, it takes time. Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Holcombe
Like I think if you’re dedicated to something, you know, you it’s good to be in the frame of mind that I want to assist and I want to help. And so like learning that learning how to best do that, I think is a, is a good thing to do. you’re truly, truly into like, you know, we’re talking about sports. If you’re really dedicated to the sport of kayaking, like that’s something to that’s worth considering, I think, you know, as, as you go about your way. you know, and try to, you know, work on developing those interactions so that you are contributing versus the opposite of that.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, it’s okay. Well, the other side of that, the other side of everything you’re saying and talking about intervening is that, like in that instance when I was in the lineup, I was really happy to go paddle back to you in Snowy and like tell you all the story. And I, cause when you’re talking about if something is going on, like whether to say something or not, I was really…

like happy that you all let me, you know, just take that on my own. You know what I mean? Like to set my own boundary. Yeah, Snowy did go over and sit near him. He was like, I’m going to catch all the waves. But no, you know, then he came back and we laughed about it. But the, it’s, I think, yeah, to be able to also, like if we’re talking about relationship and partner relationships,

Andrew Holcombe
you mean that we didn’t fire up and go over and talk to that guy?

Anna Levesque
Like I don’t need you to like jump in and defend me all the time. Although sometimes I do like it when you do that. Sometimes I, you know, maybe there’s a point, especially when I was younger and I was like in it more, there might’ve been times when I kind of have wished you had spoken up more in my defense. At the same time, because you didn’t, it helps me to learn how to be, set boundaries and to be strong on my own, independent of you as well. I think that again, comes with the, when I say ask if someone wants coaching, it’s important to have those conversations, especially when you’re close to someone. Now, of course, there are situations like if there’s physical violence or something where you don’t want to, you know, where you want to maybe intervene, but or

And otherwise, I think it’s good to have that. You can have people’s backs without doing things for them, I guess, is what I’m saying.

Andrew Holcombe
I think that’s true.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. and the other thing that is a bit vulnerable for me, I want to acknowledge you on it is I really appreciated, because this podcast is about having difficult conversations and getting vulnerable. I really, you know, that I have, especially at the beach, so in kayaking, we’re covered up with like spray skirts and PFDs and all that. At the beach, when you’re surfing, you’re in your bathing suit or your bathing, you know, your swim tights.

And that is challenging for me because I’m very, I’m curvy and I’ve always been a little bit in my mind, bigger and curvier. And I didn’t necessarily, I did not grow up in an environment where like that was embraced. And so I have a lot of judgments about myself and I really appreciate your support in that realm of really encouraging me to be myself and to go out there and do it. And, and yeah.

just be have, you know, pride in my body. And also I appreciated how you would point out all the curvy women who are in the lineup and who are on the beach. And I think that that is a nice way to be supportive that I really appreciate about you.

Andrew Holcombe
Thanks. Yeah. I mean, it’s taken me a while to be, I mean, I’ve always felt like that, but that’s, guess what I’m saying is like it, it takes a while to develop how to appropriately engage in that stuff with people. And, know, I just, I just mostly, think it’s unfortunate. That’s a good example of you know, the unfortunate side of things, like people have been told for a long time that dead bodies matter. And the reality is, is they just don’t. If it does what you want it to do, then it doesn’t matter what it looks like, you know, and there are, and it doesn’t matter if some people don’t find you attractive because other people will, you know, there is no one that everyone finds attractive. And that’s just the reality of life, you know, and it is unfortunate that people have been coached to think that there are certain body types that are necessary to do a certain thing, or that if you have something different, then you are not welcome in that spot. Whether you are or not, you’re led to believe that through whatever comments or messaging or…

media or whatever it is, you know, and I just feel that that is an unfortunate space that we have gotten into. And then it’s a bummer when it affects like someone that you care about and they don’t wanna do the thing that brings them a lot of joy, cause they feel like they’re not in the right shape or form or whatever it is to do that. So yeah, I think that’s a bummer.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, well, I appreciate your perspective on that and you sharing your perspective in this conversation because yeah, I appreciate it.

Anna Levesque
I do. Yeah, I was proud of myself for going out in my bathing suits and even my bikini bottoms one day surfing. And it was freeing. It really was. And yeah, so I think that’s, I appreciate you for that. And it’s changing. I mean, it is changing like compared to, yeah, there’s a lot more body positivity out there now, which I’m very grateful for.

Andrew Holcombe
It is. I agree.

Yep, I agree with that.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, for sure. Cool. Well, I’m not going to do rapid fire because we did the rapid fire on in episode two. So y’all, if you enjoyed this conversation and you can go back and listen to episode two, which was our, our first conversation. And we talked about some different topics and you might enjoy it. I really appreciate you taking the time, Andrew, to be here. Love you.

Andrew Holcombe
Love you too. Thanks for having me on again. I’m guest number two. That’s right. First guest for two episodes. No, I’m the second. Summerville Bean.

Anna Levesque
and yeah.

I know. No, number one, think was my was my solo episode. So you actually were the first guest, of course.

Andrew Holcombe
No, but Sommerville beat me to guess having been on twice. I feel betrayed. I’m just kidding. She’s more awesome. Yeah. She’s more awesome. That’s right.

Anna Levesque
it’s true. Sommerville was my first double. You’re both awesome in different ways. All right. Thanks for listening everyone. And we’ll see you next week.