Anna Levesque
My guest today, Jiffer Bourguignon, is the editor of InterEconomics, Review of European Economic Policy at the Leibniz Information Center for Economics. She is also co-moderator of the German Language Podcasts, and she will tell us what the name of them are.

Jiff
‘Amerika, Wir Müssen Reden and Amerika übersetzt”.

Anna Levesque
Thank you. I did not want to try to pronounce those. She has observed elections for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, in Ukraine, Georgia, and numerous Balkan countries, and has worked for the UN, Save the Children, and local NGOs in Afghanistan, Jordan, and Cambodia.

She also worked as a producer at the Washington DC Bureau of Der Spiegel during the 2016 presidential election campaign. Jiffer has a Bachelor’s in international studies in anthropology from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where we met, and a Master’s in international affairs from Columbia University in New York.

Thanks for being here, Jiffer.

Jiff
Thanks for having me, Anna.

Anna Levesque
I’m excited to talk to you about the discomfort zone. It looks a lot different from outdoor athlete discomfort zone. And I have so much respect for the work that you’ve done over the years, all over the world. And I know you’ve come face to face with challenges and discomfort. So I’d like to get into it.

Jiff
Okay, let’s do it.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, first question is when I say discomfort zone, what comes up for you? Like, what do you think about what’s right there for you?

Jiff
Like for me, me personally, like what’s my general flow word associated with discomfort, like woolen underwear. So very uncomfortable, but maybe that’s a different thing. Discomfort, you know, I think of daily challenges, I guess. I mean, I think of, you know, insecurities about raising three teenagers right now or

I live, I’m an American, I live in Germany, you know, about being at those dinner table where there’s a conversation going on and I’ve lost thread. And I’m not quite certain that I totally understand what’s going on, but I have the general gist of it. And, and then I’m like, do I jump in and make this joke? Which, you know, I know would work in English and be funny, or is everyone going to, is it to be like needle off the record, you know, and everyone stops and turns and looks at me and thinks like, what the hell is she talking about? So there’s definitely discomfort of that one has been one is an expat and living in another culture and feeling those cultural differences or, you know, having friends, American friends visit and make comments like, you know, you’re kind of different in German. And it’s true, I think, you know, language changes our ability or changes the way in which we express ourselves and you can see kind of different parts of people’s personality through the different presentations and different languages. So I guess, I don’t know, those are just off the top of my head, I guess a few of my discoveries.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yes. Thank you for bringing up the language discomfort and learning different languages. think that while growing up, I learned French and English and Spanish later in life. And it is so true that there’s a vibe, there’s a culture with each language. And I think that’s really special learning a language, but it’s not just the language, the words, it’s the culture, it’s the vibe that comes with it. And yeah, I think that’s one of the special parts about learning a different language and being able to communicate, not just again, in the words. It’s hard to explain, right? Because I’m sure your friends when they’re, you know, see you in your full German vibe, they’re like, whoa, but.

You know, it’s hard for them to explain what’s different, but it could be body language, you know.

Jiff
yeah, just little, little, little isms, little things. I mean, just like my German friends, think they know me and then, you know, my American friends come to visit and it’s just, it’s a different same thing. But like, you’re just, you know, maybe I’m more expressive or I talk more with my hands or I’m, I tell more jokes or I’m, there’s a different kind of ease maybe that comes with one’s own.

own language and own culture or with certain friends, a way of communicating which one kind of slips easily back into with old friends as we are doing right now. But, you know, but yeah, I think it’s totally true. and especially if it’s a language that you’re learning and you’re then it’s such a humbling experience. And I mean, you know, someone who’s learned multiple languages, but you really start off, and this very basic level and you communicate on a very basic level and sometimes I talk to German friends of mine who are extremely intelligent or accomplished or whatever it is and then once we switch to English, I’m like, they sound like such idiots. They sound like so kind of juvenile and then I think, God, how much I sound when I’m speaking German because you are hemmed in by maybe your vocabulary or your grammatical mistakes that you know in German I make regularly even though I do two podcasts in German so it’s like a really it’s a humbling daily experience and then when you add speaking of the other discomfort the teenagers on top of it when they call out every single grammatical mistake you make then that just is like a layer on top of another layer so

Anna Levesque
Right? Because your teenagers are perfectly bilingual, right? German, English, they probably speak French too, maybe.

Jiff
They are.

They have, well, my husband is half Italian, so they did for a long time, you know, have that going for them as well. And then we were in the States for a few years and he was traveling a lot and the Italians started to fade. And now they understand quite a lot, but the spoken language is always much more difficult than being able to listen and understand. But, know, one day, yeah.

Anna Levesque
Italian.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. So is there a memorable moment when you did jump in with a joke in German and it didn’t go over? Do you want to tell us about one?

Jiff
Yeah. I mean, it still happens regularly. I mean, you know, one of those things where, well, I mean, there’s the jokes that don’t go over, where there’s just crickets, but there’s also the jokes where, so there was one, we having dinner with a colleague of my husband’s and I was, you mentioned the election observation. I was about to do my first election observation after the twins were born. So the twins were like two and

I was going to be gone for a week and the colleagues were kind of said to my husband like you’re going to be on your own with the twins for for an entire week like I mean how are you I mean are you scared are you nervous how you going to do that and I said in German what or what I wanted to say in German was oh he can take care of himself and what I actually said apparently I well I said that I said

And so the couple just erupted into laughter and they were holding their stomachs in a peanut pants. And I was like, okay, well, obviously it’s not that funny. So what did I accidentally say? So apparently what I said was, well, my husband can pleasure himself. And it’s mistakes that you make that you will never forget. You’ll never say it the wrong way. So you do get something up.

Anna Levesque
You

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Exactly.

Jiff
And luckily there were people who we knew, so it wasn’t a completely devastatingly embarrassing moment. But still, it’s, again, humbling. It depends on the situation and the kind of mistake you make.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, totally. That’s hilarious. It is so humbling. too. gosh, and embarrassing. I’ve made those mistakes too on there. Yeah, you just, you know, it shows, it also really shows people’s humanity too when you’re learning their language and they’re so gracious and like funny, or they like,

They laugh with you. They’re laughing hysterically, but they’re not making, or at least in my experience, they’re not making me feel like an ass. They’re just, you know, they think it’s funny and then they tell you what you said and give you like some tips for next time. At least in my experience, it’s been, it’s humbling learning a new language and it’s also a strong point of connection with others and realizing that because it’s so vulnerable.

It’s like one of the most vulnerable things. I think that, yeah, having compassion and empathy, you know, when you travel and try that on, especially if you’re so used to it in a country that only speaks one language. You know, don’t ever have to experience that. Growing up in Canada, like I grew up in a very bilingual part of Canada, so people were switching all the time between French and English. It was pretty normal. And regardless, you would kind of make whatever, especially as a kid, make mistakes. yeah, having that empathy and compassion and understanding what it feels like to be, to not understand and to be vulnerable in that way, I think is a really… benefit of going into the discomfort zone of learning a new language. And also a beautiful part of like, just yeah, experiencing people’s humanity.

Jiff
Yeah, well, and you know, I mean, you also have to keep a sense of humor about the whole thing, because otherwise you might just go and crawl underneath your bed and cry. Definitely. I have had the opposite experience of the lack of empathy where, you know, people were really impatient with me when I didn’t understand and were really rude and made me feel really small and really stupid. And those days where you just want to go home and, you know, climb underneath the blanket and not come out again and be like, like this place, I’m out of here. But you do have to also keep a sense of humor about things. And I think that helps a lot because then you do have, when you have those moments where you connect or, especially I think as Americans, often just, there are a lot of, it’s really easy to get by on English, right? I mean, we don’t technically have to learn another language. We will always meet someone wherever we are in the world probably who speaks a little bit of English to help us get. And so it really is when you can speak a language and you are sitting at the table and they’re not, they don’t all, you cause I remember in the beginning was always like, let’s speak English for Jif. And it was always kind of like, was hated to make people do that. Cause again, you could see the shift in the dynamic. And I always thought like, I want to be, I want to one day be here and be part of this in, in their language, in the way they communicate. And

Jiff
And when you have that one moment where you first have that experience, it’s just so, it’s such a nice reinforcement of, you know, the kind of intimacy that you have with people in another culture when you can speak their language. And that’s really, really rewarding.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. Agree. What have you learned about yourself through putting yourself and staying in the discomfort zone? Because it takes time to learn a language. like you said, you moved to Germany and you were in it. So what have you learned about yourself?

Jiff
Good question. I don’t know that I have a lot of insecurities. That I don’t give up. That I’m stubborn and I think that that’s important as well. That I can be extremely hard on myself and sometimes my toughest critic and rightfully so and other times maybe too hard. And I’m lucky that I have a supportive family who helps balance that out. Well, I mean, really it’s within the same family. Like my husband will help balance that out by being supportive and encouraging. Whereas my kids, I mean, nothing really brings you down a notch or 20 more than teenage children. You know, you’ve never.

Anna Levesque
I can tell you’re going through it right now.

Jiff
my God, you you come out and you’re like thinking like, right, I’m dressed, I’m ready to go. And then you get that look of like, you’re wearing that, you’re going to go out of that looking like that. And it’s kind of like, or, know, just, you you feel like, you know, you’re in your head. I mean, you’re probably still in your twenties and then your children make you realize that, that you are not only not in your twenties, but you’re probably, you know, almost 150.

because you’re so uncool and you so don’t know what’s going on and you’re just so lame. So I think somewhere in between there, you realize too that you have to find that sense of self because you’re gonna get both of those and you’re have them all coming at you from not just in your own home but from outside and you have to have something to fall back on here.

And sometimes it’s stronger and sometimes it’s weaker, but you have to have something to fall back on.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, how do you navigate that? how, what do you do to cultivate that sense of self right now?

Jiff
I mean, take hormones.

Anna Levesque
Are you taking HRT? Yeah, does it work for you? I’ve thought about it, but I haven’t.

Jiff
I am.

I, you know, I, I’m not a big, drug taker. My drugs are my, my glasses of wine. but I take, I’m otherwise, I’m always just like, and when I’m sick, I’m like, I don’t need that. I can get through that. I mean, if I’m hungover, I’ll take an aspirin, but otherwise I’m not much of a drug taker. So I always thought, you know, everyone’s just whiny and peri-menopause is just a part of life and it’s nature and everyone goes through it. And so you just kind of like.

And there were, you know, of course studies out saying that it increased risks of different kinds of cancer. And so that was even more an incentive to just like get through it without anything. then new studies. Exactly. And I’ve talked to a number of people whose medical opinions who I trust, including my brother-in-law, who’s a gynecologist and who have basically said, you know, sat me down and said, you know,

Anna Levesque
Which those studies were debunked. Yeah. Yeah.

Jiff
we’re not made to live without hormones. Actually, it’s a failure of nature. We died much earlier before and we were never supposed to run out. And the fact that we’re living longer and we run out of them is just a failure of nature and everyone should be taking them. And I thought, you know, and I kind of kept hearing that from different people. And then I decided, OK, what am I fighting against? And if I have several people whose opinion I respect and they’re all recommending it, then I’ll at least give it a shot.

I mean, for me, it’s definitely helped. mean, it hasn’t been like, you know, night and day, but it has definitely made things easier. if anyone else is struggling with that, if the symptoms of that, mean, like hormones are real, man. I mean, like I also was kind of like, people need to just, you know, get over it or people just, yeah, we all have a bad day. You can’t always blame it on. And then I kind of started going through it. And that was when I said, right, okay, I need to keep my mouth shut and allow everyone to have their own experience and respect the fact that everyone goes through it differently. yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love that we can even, I mean, the conversation around perimenopause and menopause is growing and it’s great that we can have this conversation. Just part of a conversation about discomfort, cause it’s real and a lot of women are experiencing it, you know, especially our age.

Jiff
And you think you’re great, you know, like if you don’t, because it was such a taboo subject, right? And I mean, and then you would, I mean, I have a few older girlfriends and then I was like, I can, you know, they probably already they’re older than me, maybe they’ve already been through it, I can ask them, but it was always this kind of like, hush, hush when we’re alone. And it’s really nice that that’s changing and that it’s out in the open and that, you know, I sit there a lot of times now with girlfriends of mine who are my age and discuss.

Just that, mean, what are you going through? How do you deal with it? Oh, you got to try it. Or oh, I experienced this and I thought I was going insane. know, then you hear the stories. I mean, it’s like anything else. You know, it’s nice to have the support and to know that you’re not the only one. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Absolutely. And you know what you’re, pointed to too with your, you know, you’re talking about your attitude of like, I’ll call it suck it up, which I’ve had as well. And not necessarily around hormones, but I remember when Andrew and I were trying to have kids and you know, nothing worked and I got depressed for a little bit. And I remember distinctly being like, I used to think like, people are depressed. Like, why don’t they just go outside?

Like, what’s their problem? Like, just go do something like outside, exercisey or adventury. And so, and then I was like, dang, this is what it feels like. Cause I was kayaking one day and I was like, this is not fun at all. It was like so wild. It was like no feeling of joy. So, you know, and like what you’re pointing to is like the…

that compassion and empathy doesn’t happen sometimes until we go through it ourselves, which kind of points to how it’s easy to kind of, it’s also easy to dehumanize others, you know, and like, until it happens to us or it affects us, we have this idea of what it is. And I think human, it’s, I don’t know whether it’s human nature, but I’ve always, you know, my compassion and empathy has grown. The older I get because of life experience. know, it’s easier when we’re younger and we have like one view and how we expect things to like be how they are for us, like for everyone.

Jiff
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The more you I mean, yeah, it’s it’s an experience that that really completely changes the way you see things and and your empathy for other people and your understanding and the way you handle people and the way you talk about a subject. And obviously, you know, you’re much more empathetic if you’ve been through it yourself. And I mentioned before, you know, my dad is is sick and he’s going through

and illness. And I’ve, you know, I have been, had the good fortune in life that I haven’t really dealt with losing someone who’s close to me. mean, grandparents, but my, the majority of my grandparents passed away before I was really old enough to have much of a memory, unfortunately. But I guess did spare me in another way from going through.

that but this is the first time and I know that I mean I’ve had several friends who have gone through it whether it’s with parents or partners or other loved ones and always felt like I don’t know what to say I don’t know what to do this is gonna sound trite this is gonna sound trivial this is you know how do I help them how do I support them and I already feel kind of you know and it’s a very new it’s only been a few weeks since we got the news but I already feel like a certain an understanding for what other friends have gone through or are going through or ideas of ways that I can talk to them, support them, be more helpful, even though I’m just in the early stage of this whole experience and process. So, yeah, absolutely.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I’m really present too right now that, you know, a lot of the conversations on my podcast so far have been about the discomfort zone as a growth zone, as a courage zone, you know, and really, it’s also an empathy and compassion zone. I love this. So appreciate, appreciate this conversation.

Jiff
Me too. Yeah, no, it’s good to just check in with each other, you know, and sometimes, I mean, last night I called a friend of mine out in California who is a very, very dear friend of mine. And we don’t see each other as often as we would like and don’t talk either because it’s a nine hour time difference, but it’s just sometimes it’s just like an out of the blue call. Like, hey, I was just thinking of you, how are you doing?

Or now the fact that I get to sit here with you and catch up with you and I haven’t talked to you. I know with everyone joining in, which is also great. But it’s just, think that, I started and I kind of dropped it, but I started like a year or two ago, I’m like, I am going to write thank you notes. whether it be for gifts or when we were traveling and stayed with people or just

Anna Levesque
I know, on a podcast.

Jiff
I was staying with friends in Berlin one weekend and we went out for dinner and I just wrote a note saying, it was so much fun. I had such a great time with you guys. Thank you so much for the laughs for dinner. was just, it was really good to spend time with you. And, you know, I got this teary phone call from my friend, like, how amazing was that to get a card in the mail? You just never expected. I, and I thought, we need to do this kind of thing more often, especially nowadays. I mean, it’s one of those, kind of, right, the crazy irony of making communication easier and, you know, we can see each other right now, you know, we’re looking at each other on a screen, I can call you up for free on an app, I don’t have to pay anything for it, we can talk all the time and yet still, a lot of times, all this ease of communication, we still feel so disconnected from people.

And I think, I mean, maybe who knows, ironically, the ease has to do with making us feel more disconnected. And maybe it’s more superficial communication rather than the longer kind of sit down and write a long letter or sit down and have a longer chat. don’t know. But it’s always good to just kind of just reach out.

Anna
Yes, agree. I love to write handwritten cards to my clients who take longer programs with me. It feels nice. And also what you’re talking about is acknowledgement, which is nice to receive and to give in handwritten form. It’s also wonderful to receive just in whatever, like a text, a phone call, or even in person when you’re really grateful for someone instead of not saying anything or if they look good or you like their, you know, whatever their outfit is, or they just have like an extra sparkle that day. Really so important to say it, to articulate it, because it does mean a lot. And acknowledging people for who they are and not, they don’t have to have done anything exceptional, you know, to receive praise or acknowledgement. It’s just a really nice feeling, both the giving and receiving of that. It’s a practice I…

And at first, I don’t know whether it’s uncomfortable. must be, we just, I don’t know whether we just assume people know or it’s part of holding back or a protective mechanism, but there is a discomfort in acknowledging people. You have to be confident. When you were saying you have to know yourself or like, I’m paraphrasing now, but like be grounded in yourself. I think if you’re grounded in yourself, then you have the courage to acknowledge people more.

And it can be uncomfortable sometimes. And not wanting to receive anything in return, that’s also key. You’re not doing it to like, so they say something nice back to you. You know what I mean?

Jiff
I’m always fishing for compliments.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it’s definitely, definitely the gratitude thing. like there’s always the studies about, try to do that with the kids too, just, you know, you know, being grateful. And in German, the word is Dankbar. And it’s funny because we have, as you know, although you haven’t been yet, we have a big Thanksgiving celebration here in Germany. Every year it started with, God, it started

like 18 years ago, it’s gonna be 17, 18 years ago when a mutual friend of ours from UNC, our friend Ava came to visit me in Hamburg many, years ago over Thanksgiving weekend. And I was just like, you know, we’ll go out for schnitzel, we’ll go out and have some beers. And she’s like, what? Now it’s Thanksgiving, we gotta do something, we gotta, you know, call a couple people, invite them over. I’m gonna, I’ll start making this and that, you make this and that. And then we put…

We put together a little dinner, think like 12 people came over and she’s even vegetarian, but she insisted on some sort of bird. And then we did, the Germans all know the mashed potatoes, but it was kind of a potluck and some of them brought some German rotkohl, which is the red cabbage. And one of my girlfriends had been in Arkansas as an exchange student. So she brought a sweet potato casserole with marshmallows, would absolutely enthralled the Germans. They were absolutely fascinated by the melted marshmallows on top.

We also then, you know, we did the thing where you made everyone, because I’m like, okay, they’re interested in the food. It’s something that there’s a lot of stereotypes about American food. It’s Pizza Hut or Kentucky Fried Chicken. And they had never seen green bean casserole and what’s this and what’s that. And I thought, okay, if we’re to do this, then we’ll do this. And so in my house, we would always go around the table and say what we were thankful for. So we kind of made everybody do that too. And the funny thing is Germans are…

come across these cultural differences, right? Where Americans are much more, were much more, I realized, open, were much more vocal about our feelings. A lot of, at least my friends, feel like all of my friends are in some sort of therapy or were in therapy or they’re very in touch with, you know, working on themselves and Germans are more like, know. So the idea of, you know, and we started off, we were 12 people and then kind of it became this tradition and every year got a little bit bigger.
So that now we are 100 people on Thanksgiving. And we still do what we call Dankbarkeit, which literally translates as thankful time and where everyone has to get up and say something. And you know, what’s funny is I’ve had actually German friends of mine hide in the bathroom when it was time to do this because they were they were just like, no, I’m not getting up there. I’m not saying anything in public. I’m not sharing something personal. And I always say, you want to share something, you know, it could just be a thank you for sunny day, you know, it doesn’t have to be. But you know, over the years, people have, you know, we started when we were in our, I don’t know, was what late 20s. And so there were people who were, you know, starting families, having children, meeting a partner, and getting married. And so they were thankful for those things in their lives. then, but sometimes there was someone who was thankful for, you know, quote unquote, the time, the few months they had with their child before died. And then it’s like, it’s just, I mean, there were just these

And now, like I said, I shared about my father and now I’ve had over the past couple of years several people being thankful for the time that they had with a parent before they passed away. So you can see over the years these cycles of life that we’re going through. But also this, what happened was sharing these things, I had several people come up to me at the end of the evening saying, know, I had this really great conversation with your friend so-and-so.

I heard what she said about what she was thankful for and I had the same experience and I went up and started talking to her. And so it brought people together in this way that it gave a group of otherwise some people who were strangers this common connecting point and even created some friendships that continue to this day. So I think the art of being thankful and sharing and was something that really helps people to connect and help bring people together and that was something that

People, they hate it and they love it and they love to hate it. But they do it. So I think they do it for me. yeah, they do it. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
That’s awesome.

Yeah, that’s beautiful. Love it. Yeah. I do you need to come one of these years? I know. What actually it reminded me of a time when the world championships were in Austria. The kayak freestyle world championships were in Austria in 2003. And of course I love learning languages. So I had my little German phrase book and there was a guy from the German team and

Jiff
Yes you do!

Anna Levesque
I was talking to him one day and I said, I was kind asking him, like, how do you, like, if I’m going into a bakery, how do I just say, hi, how’s it going? He’s like, Germans, Austrians, we don’t do the chit chat. There’s no like small talk. He’s like, just drop it. That’s weird. Just go in, order what you want. And I was like, okay, got it.

Jiff
We do not do the charm. No, that’s so bad. That’s so bad. That’s not true.

Anna Levesque
Right.

No, but that was just funny. I’ll never forget that little tutorial from him. Maybe he was sending me a message like, stop trying to talk to me. Stop trying to ask me so many questions. Okay, so you have traveled all over the world and you have observed elections in some countries that I would say like I would be nervous to go to Afghanistan being you know a major one what kind of so I think of that it was like a really uncomfortable experience what was it like to observe elections around the world and how did you navigate any discomfort that comes with that

Jiff
Yeah. Afghanistan, actually, I not only observed, but I lived there. I worked for the UN who, it was back in 2005 after fall of the Taliban the first time and the election of Hamid Karzai. And then I was there helping to prepare for parliamentary elections. So I was living there. And I mean, the thing about it at that time was, especially when we, you know,

saw the pullout of international forces that happened in August of 2021 and now the return of the Taliban. It was a time of hope and possibility and, you know, change. And there was just such an amazing energy and vibe and again, a possibility. it really felt like you were there at a

a moment in history that was important or that could be the beginning of a new era and which of course is then sad to the story now because we all know how it’s going. But it was exciting and it was fascinating people with fascinating lives and backgrounds who had been all over the world and doing everything from all walks of life and

and a million different languages. And it was fantastic. I mean, there were challenges with security. mean, there were times where we were in pretty sketchy situations. And I guess I was there also in my, you know, was my mid 20s, early 30s. And at a time, I must say, mean, God, I make it sound like I’m 150, but at a time where you really just feel like it’s not gonna happen to me, you know, like, or shit did you hear about that but that’s not gonna happen to me I don’t know whereas now you you at least I definitely am feeling more cautious but but it was just it was the adventure it was the excitement it was being in you know a different part of the world and a completely completely different culture learning about it being a part of it too and feeling hopeful that it was being a part of it special time in the history of the country. And, you know, same thing with any election observation. mean, it’s also a lot of times not, mean, sometimes there’s smaller elections that are relatively insignificant or fairly certain of the outcome. And other times there are elections that really change the course of a country’s history and sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. So, but it’s being able to be there and you know, be part of an international group of observers who’s saying, you know, we’re here and we’re interested in the outcome and we’re, you know, want to be supportive of your democratic process. Hopefully, you know, a lot of people, get questions about, you know, how are you sure that you’re not seeing any voter fraud? How do you, how can you be certain when you say it’s a free and fair election that there wasn’t something going on? And, and of course,

We can’t see everything, especially nowadays. Everyone has a phone. Everyone can see, hey, the observers are coming, put things away. It is possible. But we’re not the only ones. And it’s big process. The organization coordinates to see the difference between a few maybe incidents versus widespread and systemic fraud. But that’s a whole other conversation for another podcast. But yeah, I mean, you know, we met, I think, right when you got back from a semester in Chile, and I think became friends because I just wanted to hear all about it. And I think for me, you know, coming from a small town in Wisconsin, and going to Europe was just the most, you know, amazing and eye opening experience. And here you would just come back from South America. for me, it was just

I mean, a whole other level beyond anything that I had experienced. And I think we bonded over that, over that, over what we loved about travel and those, the learning and the growth that comes with putting yourself out there in the discomfort zone. Because really, and I try to tell my kids that now too. I mean, there’s no growth without discomfort. If you’re always do what you’ve always done, you’re always gonna get what you always got. I mean, you have to take the chance of being vulnerable and uncomfortable if you’re going to grow and learn and challenge yourself and be more comfortable in other situations in the future.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, yeah. And it is uncomfortable. mean, yeah, my mind blew open when I, and when I traveled to Chile and studied a semester abroad there. And especially for me in my life of like, people whitewater kayak here and they whitewater kayak everywhere and you can do this super cool thing. And also there was that added aspect of me that I still love about what I do of being bonded.

with people from all over the world who love the river, who love whitewater kayaking. It can be with whatever, mean, whether it’s whitewater kayaking or whatever passion you have, bonding over that is pretty special. And then again, you realize you’re more alike than you are different. And yeah, I’m sure, I don’t know what your experience is, but I remember landing in Uganda at night and being like, okay, this is like before

smartphones like, okay, there’s going to be a driver. They said there’s going to be a driver here to pick me up and take me to the rafting company way out and like super nervous. I remember, I even remember my driver’s name was Henry. He was amazing. He was so lovely. Same thing in China, you know, where I knew that I wouldn’t understand anything, not even the alphabet. And I just feel like it’s scary.

And then the connect, I just love connecting with people from different cultures. It’s, yeah, it, yes.

Jiff
Yeah, absolutely. It just makes the world so much smaller too. And I mean, especially in this day and age with everything that’s going on and conflicts and even at home. mean, obviously right now it’s very fraught political times to put it diplomatically. you know, I mean, sometimes just that connection is

But realizing too, think when you’re, like you said, there’s whitewater rafting here. mean, realizing that people aren’t all that, I mean, different. We all have smaller basic needs and there is a way to connect at that level. And I know for me, like part of it was food and cooking and taking an interest in what people were eating and asking someone to show me how to make something, you know, getting myself invited over into their kitchen and having them put me to work and learn because it’s not so much more than just a meal on a plate. It’s the country’s history, it’s the family’s traditions. And when they share that, can see so many, they’re just so proud and happy to share that. And then stories come out of that. And then there’s just this kind of openness that flows and this, again, ability to connect that comes with taking an interest in something you know, that everyone loves to do to eat, you know.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, to cook. Yes. And you are an amazing cook. Yeah, thanks. I know. Okay. Are you ready for rapid fire questions? They’re meant to be… What’s that?

Jiff
well, then come on over here.

Anna Levesque
These are meant to be answered in like a word or a sentence, kind of short and sweet. What’s a morning ritual that sets you up for success?

Jiff
Not hitting snooze. a morning ritual. Well, ever since I did your cleanse, ever since I did your cleanse, I tried to get up and do at least one stretch and I have started doing body brushing actually, which, yes, which helps to kind of actually wake me up, I think, in a way, like just, you know, makes me like,

Anna Levesque
Hmm. That is a one actually.

Nice.

Jiff
Yeah, I feel more alert and more awake. And coffee.

Anna Levesque
That’s great. That’s awesome. What’s a non-negotiable self-care practice?

Jiff
Hmm. Well, I’m negotiable. I, we recently installed a sauna and, I, yes. Yes. And, I really, it’s just like, you know, you just feel like you get all of, all of the toxins out, all of the dirt, all of the, I don’t, it just, it just feels so good to sweat it out. And I really feel afterward.

Anna Levesque
So jealous.

Jiff
This kind of sense of tranquility, is really, it’s like, or like, you know, like after going, I just started going to, and my whole New Year’s resolution in dry January, I started going back to Bchrom. And it’s the same thing after I’m done with a Bikram class, I just feel like I’m kind of floating on a cloud. So that’s really nice.

Anna Levesque
That’s awesome. Okay, now I’m coming for Thanksgiving so I can sit in your sauna. I’m just kidding. I’m such a terrible friend. Okay, what’s a favorite book or talk that you would recommend?

Jiff
Okay, good. Glad that that’s finally talked you into it. That’s all it took. Why did you tell me that?

Jiff
Talk, my podcast, no, I’m just kidding. Book, yeah, favorite book I I have a pile sitting next to my bedside table right now, but two of my favorite books were White Teeth by Zadie Smith and The God of Small Things by Arhundati Roy. Two of my all-time favorites.

Anna Levesque
Okay, thank you. What do people get wrong about you?

Jiff
That I’m extroverted. I’m not, I’m very much introverted. Just like, I’m kind of fascinated by people and I do get a lot of energy from people, but I am actually an introvert.

Anna Levesque
Okay, this is kind of like a kayaking themed one, but I think you’ll get it. Hard moves in easy water or flooding.

Jiff
well, I guess I’m not, not sure. I have to dissect that. It depends.

Anna Levesque
Like, do you like progression? Like low consequence environments to try new things? Or do you just like to like jump off the cliff, so to speak?

Jiff
I think a lot of those, we’re talking about growth again, I think a lot of those, I think are more of the flooding. think I sometimes just push myself off. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah, cool. Okay, what’s one word that describes your comfort zone?

Jiff
Um, my comfort zone? One word? Uh, um, kitchen? I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, totally love that. Okay, freedom through discipline or I do what I want.

Jiff
Oh, I do what I want. like the worst Virgo in the world. a Virgo and I’m like, just, I must have had a moon somewhere on Neptune. I don’t know, but yeah, no, I’m, yeah, no, sorry.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, no, agree. Okay. In one word, what do you hope your legacy will be?

Jiff
In one word, love.

Anna Levesque
That’s a good one. Is there anything else you want to say to our listeners about the discomfort zone?

Jiff
I hope.

Yeah, well, I guess love and cook and I think, yeah, I really, it’s because it’s a topic with the kids now. Yeah, growth comes through, a change comes through growth. Growth comes through change and at any age and I think it doesn’t matter. We still have to keep pushing ourselves and… getting outside of routines and I think the older we get the more routines kind of suck us in and it’s important to get out of those and try new things and meet new people and have new inspirations and new impetus through new people and through new places and through new experiences and I think that is I do love New Year’s resolutions and I know everybody hates them but I love them for that impetus because I think sometimes the impetus is

Good. And one more thing, don’t know, like, what do you want to say? Okay. You know, I’ve just been talking for the last half an hour, but no, I have so much to No. The other thing to wrap it up, speaking of perilous political times and my father, who I have disagreed with over politics for almost all of my life, or at least all of my life where I’ve had a political opinion or consciousness. And I really just think

Anna Levesque
Ha ha!

Jiff
But it’s so important that we continue to talk to people who have those different opinions, even though it’s difficult, even though it makes us want to leap off a bridge or, you know, throw our hands up in the air and walk away and say it’s pointless. I think it’s so important not to stop talking. So that’s…

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for sharing that. Thanks so much for being here, Jeff. I appreciate you. And so grateful for our friendship over a long time now. And we, yeah, we don’t always connect often, but it’s always a joy to see you, talk to you, hang out with you. So thanks.