Anna Levesque
My guest today, Jennifer McClanahan, is a trusted advisor to C-suite leaders, helping them create healthy workplace culture that foster, let me start that over, cultures. My guest today, Jennifer McClanahan, is a trusted advisor to C-suite leaders, helping them create healthy workplace cultures that foster innovation. As the founder and CEO of Leverage to Lead,

She guides leaders in operationalizing their values, ensuring their organizations thrive in today’s complex environments. Her work empowers leaders to see their unique differences as strengths, transforming the way they lead and live. I’m excited to have you here, Jennifer. Thank you for being here.

Jennifer McClanahan
Thanks so much for having me, Anna. I’m very excited to have this conversation. I have been enjoying your podcast and so I’m feeling a little surreal to actually be talking to you. I’m amazed by your guests because I do so much corporate work and they are out doing things that are different and so original. I love it. I love it. This keeps me expanding my thinking about what is possible by listening to your podcast.

Anna Levesque
Well, thank you. I’m excited to have you on the podcast and share about your discomfort zone. So to get into it, when I say discomfort zone, what comes up for you?

Jennifer McClanahan
Besides the pit in my stomach. I actually was thinking about this and I thought, know, sometimes my discomfort zone is really about leadership. You know, how I lead being a leader, holding what it means to be a leader with power, how and how I conventionally think about power and to think that I can redefine it.

And then I was thinking one of the things where I have discomfort zone is it’s probably part of being an entrepreneur. You know, I’ve had leverage league for 15 years. so I like to take risks. am a risk taker, but there’s a lot of discomfort that comes with it because while I’m very optimistic, there’s often little certainty about the risks I take. So I think that’s probably. I sometimes wish I wasn’t so risk.

not like not adverse. I wish I was more risk adverse and not risk. I mean, I like a risk. I’ve invested my money high risk. I take it’s like I am a like a risk not junkie because it’s not comfortable, but I don’t mind it. But it does give me angst. So there’s that.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, interesting because kayakers are often called or adventure sports folks are often called adrenaline junkies. And so it sounds like you’re like a risk junkie, which is kind of similar. And there are like different levels. Like I can, don’t consider myself very pro risk, honestly. I feel like I’m, I take less risk that my colleagues in paddling for sure and my fellow competitors back when I was competing, even my husband. There are layers to that. What I hear you saying is that you’re pro-risk and it stresses you out to be pro-risk. Okay. Yeah.

Jennifer McClanahan
It’s my discomfort zone, right? It’s like, cause you know, what, is it going to work? The certainty I go so far into risk that there is not a certainty of the outcome, but I’m willing to do it. I’m optimistic. mean, one of the things I know I can figure things out. Like I’m very confident in my ability to figure it out. So even if I take the risk and something happens, I know I can figure it out. I think Hannah too, because, when I first started leverage-leading, was basically just me and all my risk, but now my risk also impacts other people. So I think it’s that risk with responsibility and I’m leading people down this road with me is probably where the heart really lies.

Anna Levesque
Yes.

Gosh, there are so many parallels to whitewater kayaking and leadership and whitewater kayaking and what you’re talking about. And I’m just pointing them out because I think it’s fascinating and that’s why I love these conversations that, you know, it could be like, well, I’m an adventure sports person, so I view risk this way or I’m a…

entrepreneur, so I view risk this way. But there, it’s the like similar threads. And I think I love, love connecting the similar threads. Because I’d like to say that how you approach kayaking, or any adventure sport, or leadership or risk in entrepreneurship is how you approach life, right? We tend to think like, we compartmentalize like,

Well, I approach kayaking this way and then sometimes I don’t, that’s what I help my clients do is see the connection of I approach, kayaking brings me fear or I’m facing fear and I approach it this way and I’m frustrated with that, helping them to see how they approach it in that way in other areas of life as well. And then you can use the similar strategies. So yeah, yeah. So what…

When you say you’re pro-risk, have you always been that way? Is it something you learned? Is it something that you were brought up with?

Jennifer McClanahan
think, you my dad was in the Air Force and my mom did not know my dad well. I mean, I think they met a times and then they got married and then she moved to Washington State. They were in Bakersfield, California. And then they moved to Japan and then they moved to Hawaii where I was born in Hawaii. So, but my mother was like ready to go. So I don’t know if she had discomfort per se, but we grew up going.

Like you just go like moving when I moved to New York City, I had $300 and I was like, but I’m supposed to be in New York City. But the idea of packing up and moving and going was something that we just did in our family. know, my daughter has a little bit of that too. She with her class, her school, they had a trip and she went to Kenya and she just was like, I’m ready. I’m going to go. And I was like, are you a little nervous? Are you a little hesitant? And she’s like, no. So I do think we were raised as doers. Like you just, if you have an idea, you just go do it, even if you’re leaving home and you don’t know where it’s going to lead you. So I think that’s it.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, well, what I heard you say is you had a lot of practice in figuring stuff out growing up.

Jennifer McClanahan
Yeah, because we were always in a new area, had to get new friends. And then the other thing is because we live right next to the Air Force base for most of the time that I was growing up, everyone on our block was different. So they came from somewhere different. So in the days, back in the day when I was young, we went outside and played like our parents kicked us out and like, just go play. And, so we would go, I’d go knock on people’s doors. I’d go play in other people’s houses. I’d have dinner at other people’s houses. They would have dinner at our house, but it was always different. Like the rules, the food that they ate, what you could or couldn’t do, how many siblings they had. Like they were culturally very different. had, my best friend was from Guam, but my other neighbors right next door were from Pakistan and they were my babysitters. So like to go culturally, back and forth and around in a single day was so normal that I actually like difference. I feel more comfortable with difference, I think, than I do with sameness.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, what it sounds like to me also is that you had an experience of that people, even though there’s difference, that people are kind. I don’t know, I’m putting that word out there, but you’re talking about eating meals, sharing playtime, being taken care of by many different families. And so having that experience of, I just wonder if having that experience to like many different people and that sense of community and always I’m putting this, you didn’t say this, like being taken care of, I wonder if that like safety net, so to speak, ever promoted like that pro risk, right? Because what, go ahead. Well, no, even in like, adventure sports, right? The people that you go out with matter. And if you feel supported, like in order to go into your discomfort zone, you have to be in some type of comfort zone and in like trusting people. And this goes into leadership as well. And then that, at least for, I’ll speak for myself, it helps me want to take more risk when I know there’s that support.

Jennifer McClanahan
100%. And I have a, like, I believe so clearly that I will meet people and build relationships wherever I go. I think that was probably part of my childhood. So even when I’m doing something that’s risky, I’m pretty sure I’m going to meet someone along the way that’s going to help me out. Or, you know, if I get in a jam, I’m going to find a resource, a person. I love meeting people, so that’s part of it, but I just…

I do think the comfort of knowing that I can build a relationship with someone to help me find, figure out, or go forward is a thing that supports me in taking the risk. But even though it’s still uncomfortable because I have to, you know, you take a risk, there’s a lot of work. You don’t just take the risk and then it’s done. You take the risk and then you evaluate the risk. You mediate, you make a decision, then you gotta make another decision.

And then sometimes you got to roll back the decision. So there’s a lot of responsibility that goes with risk taking for me and my business.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, yeah. I wanted to touch one more, one last time on the, I think that to me, your belief, your knowing that you’ll meet someone along the way that will help you out, that sounds so amazing. My question is I really like, how do you, do you have any advice for cultivating that type of knowing or belief or practice strategy?

Jennifer McClanahan
I was going to say practice, know, practice meeting people and talking to people. And, know, the assumption we often have is that we are being a bother, but I really know for sure that people actually really like helping other people. We are so bound by connection that if someone can, and it’s reasonable ask, they’re actually usually happy to help. That has been my experience. It’s how I, right, that’s how I was raised. And so I think it’s practicing, building the belief that people would actually want to help you. The other thing though, realized, I didn’t realize this probably until a couple years ago, and I am well in my 50s. I don’t have a loud negative voice in my head. I know, I was reading this book on, you know, making peace with your mind. And so I was like, I need to make peace with my mind. And then I was reading that, like how some people talk to themselves. And I was at, I was stunned by that. Like I don’t have imposter syndrome either. I don’t, so there’s something about, I think I don’t have this negative. I mean, of course everyone has negative self-talk. Do I want to lose 10 pounds? Absolutely. Should I work out harder? 100%. But this, where I would, where I
and thinking about how other people think about me when I’m meeting them is not a discourse that is in my head when I’m meeting them. So I mean that because at first I used to think, oh, I’m just friendly and everyone could be friendly. But I also know I don’t have the burden of hearing negative self-talk about whether or not someone would like me, how they feel about me, or what they think. Because I just think, oh, well, why don’t you get to know me?

Anna Levesque
That’s, I love that. I want to practice more of that. I’m going to take that on seriously after this conversation, because for me, a big discomfort zone is asking for help. I just get all, allowing people to contribute to me is a discomfort zone for me. And asking for help, even sometimes my husband’s like, why don’t you ask that person to connect you with this person? And I’m like, I don’t want to be a bother. You know, that’s the conversation in my head.

I don’t like, just like you said, I don’t want to be a bother. And it does take practice just like anything else. So that is something I have been taking on is, you know, asking for help and not being, yeah, just working through that fear.

Jennifer McClanahan
Do you know what else helped me? in 2018, I decided that I was not going to be uncomfortable by myself anymore. So if I was in a situation where someone made me uncomfortable or having a conflict, I would usually, I was kind of raised to just suck it up and manage and like kind of go on. And so I started practicing. I was not very good at it, but if something happened in the moment and I was uncomfortable or it’s feeling discomfort,

I would share my discomfort if it was in relationship with someone else. Like if I did something and I was just uncomfortable taking risks, that’s not the case. But if I was in relationship with someone else and something happened and I felt really uncomfortable, I practiced saying it. I didn’t do it first three months. I was like, this was a moment where you could have actually done the practice. But by the end, I remember I was in this meeting around the table. It was a full administrative meeting.

I was working with a client and there were six of us in the room. It was men and women. It was a very diverse group. And we were talking about something. I remember the subject and I said something. I gave my idea. This is what I think blah, blah, blah. And the guy next to me who is a friend to this day, he’s a great human. He says, well, you know, as Jennifer said, and then he just repeated my thoughts.

When I said my thought, everyone was like confused and like, and I think so. And then when he took my thought and he said my thought, were like, man, such a great idea. That’s so amazing. And so I stopped the meeting. I was like, absolutely not okay. I said, that’s why I don’t remember what it was because I was so busy making sure that everyone understood how uncomfortable that made me and that we were actually, you know, working with our socialization in that.

I had an idea. It wasn’t okay, but as soon as he had the idea, was okay. They were so shocked. They were like, well, no, you know, and I wasn’t even mad. I think that was the other part of the discomfort. I just didn’t want to carry it all on my own. I did not want to leave that room upset or feeling slight. I wanted them to know how their behavior impacted me and for them to hold the responsibility for that. So.

That was practice. mean, believe me, that took a lot of work to get there, but now I do it. Like if I’m uncomfortable and it matters, I’m not, then I share the discomfort.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. so is that, do you feel, do you still feel discomfort in doing that? Because for me, thinking about that too, that is like, I would be, yeah, nervous again, because maybe I have the dialogue of, again, I don’t want to be a pain or, and of course I’ve, you know, in the core, over the course of my career, I have

Definitely done that and I’ve gotten into some heated conversations as a result. And that’s okay and I’m okay with it. It does take courage to do that.

Jennifer McClanahan
Yeah, I am. I’m better at it now, so I do do it more. I did a lot of work. I’ve actually also been being responsible for my own emotions because I think there’s one thing to say this thing happened and I’m uncomfortable. And another thing to say, I want you to fix my discomfort. Right. And so now that I can like now I’ll know if I’m feeling this way.

I’m feeling this way because this thing happened. the thing that’s gonna, the reason why I’m feeling this way is because I need to do whatever I need to do. because if it’s gonna impact our relationship, it’s actually worth it for me to tell you something that’s uncomfortable. Actually, it just happened the other day, a client, I love her so much and we had a moment and it was hard. It was my birthday, we my birthday dinner and I had, told her, you know, something that happened that had made me uncomfortable. And it was the hardest conversation I had. It was hard. It took me all of dinner. You we weren’t having coffee when I was like, okay, I gotta tell you this thing happened. But because I value the relationship so much, I know that I will hold it. Like I was gonna hold it and I didn’t wanna hold it. And I also didn’t tell her because she needed to go back and do something different or fix.

But I wanted our relationship to be clear. Do you know what I mean? I respect her so much, I want her to know how I’m feeling. So that we can take that into consideration going forward.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, absolutely. Because then it’s not occupying space in your mind, which affects the relationship. And what you’re describing is really courageous and it does foster clear and strong relationships because then there isn’t any noise in the background or any weirdness or passive aggressiveness. And those difficult conversations can lead to stronger connection.

And I think what you said is important. It’s not, you another way that I, what’s coming to mind for me as well is, like you said, taking responsibility for your own emotions. And it’s not that you’re, I I think sometimes asking yourself, why do I want to say this? Like you were, you were mentioning, cause if it’s just to dominate someone or because, you’re mad or I don’t know, yeah, you want them to instead of taking responsibility, like you said, and be like, okay, here’s what happened. I’m expressing this to be clear, because clear is kind, as Brene Brown has said, even though it’s challenging.

Jennifer McClanahan
It is challenging. It is. And it’s also about my values and boundaries, right? It’s not necessarily because I need them to be a different person, but I do need to respect. I need to be able to articulate what I need and have people respect that. It’s hard though.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. It is hard. And this is a conversation actually in whitewater kayaking and whitewater kayaking communities. There are a lot of people in groups who, you know, see people or experience people not doing supportive things or not managing risk in a way that feels supportive. And there’s a lot, there are a lot of unsaid conversations, at least that, you know, with conversations with my clients.

And with my groups, that comes up a lot. So again, I’ll ask you, so what is maybe one or two things that people can practice to build up the courage to have these conversations?

Jennifer McClanahan
You know what? One of the practices is to be able yourself to hold multiple perspectives. If you like, I, so in the conversation I have with the client, I was also holding, not that I knew what her perspective was because we had to have the conversation, but that the way she saw it probably is going to be different than the way I saw it. And my ability to hold both of those things at the same time means that I don’t have to give shame or blame or fault.

But often, because if you can practice understanding that two people are experiencing the same event, but feeling very differently about that event, and that’s part of being human, then you can hold. So when you have the conversation, you know that you’re sharing something this one probably doesn’t know. Right? That might not even be how they see the world. It may not have been even what they experienced. And so you’re not imposing, right, or them trying to make sure that they’re mind readers, you’re informing them in a different perspective that you’re holding while giving respect to their perspective. If that follows.

Anna Levesque
Yes, very. Thank you for sharing that. I hope listeners are really taking notes on this because it is so important. And challenging conversations are a big discomfort zone, you know, for everyone as humans. Even conversation can be discomfort, you know.

Jennifer McClanahan
Because you know we are wired for connection. This is not my, I heard this from Joy who worked with me, so this is not my quote. We are wired for connection and we’re socialized for disconnection. And so our socialization around disconnection makes it feel like it’s the norm that we shouldn’t be, like that we want to be connected or that we want to care, that somehow that might be default, a fault in us, something that’s not quite right, we should want to be independent and disconnected and not care what other people think. And right, that’s what we are told. That is not necessarily how we are wired or how we feel. And so even in disagreement, when you make connection, it feels good, right? It feels like, okay, they see me, they understand what I need. I see them respecting my humanity, even if we don’t agree, right? That is the wired being wired for connection. And somehow I think we think that’s weak. But it is just a central part of our humanity.

Anna Levesque
Absolutely.

Yeah, it is interesting what we, what culture has labeled as weak or I mean, yeah.

Jennifer McClanahan
I work in such a corporate setting that like emotions don’t come to work and you know, we’re supposed to be individual contributors, right? That is like the name of when you talk about employees or individual contributors. And so we do a lot of work with our clients around, especially the leaders we work with about showing their humanity such that their teams can be comfortable being human with them.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, and is that uncomfortable to walk into those C-suites? I know you work with some big companies that everyone would know, right? And so what is it like to walk into a corporate environment? And here you are bringing this conversation about humanity into a setting that probably, I don’t know, well, I won’t…

into a setting where that’s not the conversation or maybe profits is the conversation or I don’t even know what the conversation is to be honest because I’m not in the corporate world.

Jennifer McClanahan
So lots of times it’s about like there’s a crisis, something happens and then people call us and then to come in and help them manage through the conflict or what’s happening. Often the problem is that people don’t have systems and structures, which is why that’s what’s in my bio. Because if you create a system or a structure that is values based, it helps navigate a lot of confusion, the standards and stuff that come up. But we always say like, our clients love us for like

first two meetings and then they begin to hate us because you know it sounds great and everyone feels good and yes we’ll do it but then we ask them to actually show up right with their emotions and most of their like I like I would rather get my tooth pulled and talk about my emotions at work but we’re like you know you don’t have to talk about them but they’re here with you and they’re here with them and so denying them doesn’t make them go away it only actually amplifies the voice in your
so they don’t, some of them, mean, some of them really are like, yes, I love it. but most of them, do we have to, do we have to talk about this? and that’s also in relationship with power. have a lot of conversations with leaders about power. And I think we were kind of talking about that’s my discomfort zone because we’re socialized that power is control of people, right? Control over, and power doesn’t always have to show up that way. And so sometimes when we have power, we disassociate it because I don’t want to be that kind of boss. I don’t want to be that CEO. But there’s not necessarily a framework to be a different type of CEO. It’s something that you have to create based on your values, who you are in the world, and your responsibilities, and how you want to show up. And that feels, especially at the level when you are leading people, it feels so risky because I’m not doing the best practice of leadership. I’m going to decide that I’m going to be my own leader when we have profits on the line, right? We have people’s jobs on the line. So we really talk to people about you can build a culture in which people are heard and seen and have profitability. It’s not one or the other. So that’s really kind of, if we can get that message across, then it kind of takes down the intensity of actually being a leader that’s actually deciding how to hold my power responsibly. Does that make sense?

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm. Yeah. What is the… Like, what is the belief, maybe when you first walk in, that reframing power would lead to less profitability? Or being more human-centered would diminish profits?

Like, what’s that conversation?

Jennifer McClanahan
It’s not the first conversation we have when we walk in, but it happened by the time we start talking to people about emotions. The assumption is we’re going to like be feeling all day and not working all day. You know, and so how are we going to actually do the hardcore work of being accountable and responsible and getting the job done? you know, and what we say, like, if there’s an organization that is actually doing performance evaluations.

Often the boss is telling the employee what the expectations are and whether or not they’re meeting them. And we offer, it could be great for you to actually work on building a relationship with the person that you supervise so that you understand how they think, what they need. They can actually tell you what they need in order to meet the expectation. And when you start building the relationship where they can tell you what they need,

in order to meet the expectation, if you’ve given them an expectation, they show up more fully. And in the end, when you have organizations where people are showing up more fully, feeling fully accountable, feeling understood, knowing like, I need professional development, this is where I need it. Your profits go alongside. At Lovers Lead, we had kind of the opposite scenario. In 2023, great year, we had…

You know, it wasn’t our best year, but it was really good. We were well over seven figures. 2024, really tough year. We lost a lot of clients. We lost a lot of work. We had to lay off people. Some people, you know, went in transition and found other jobs. And we were very human-centered about all of it.

like where we’re doing profitability, where things lie, how we have to cut, all of the things. It was difficult. I would love to never have a year like that again, if possible. But at the end of the year, we were as profitable, like once we had like actual net profit, it was the same as the year before. And the reason, like Rye, right, is because we were actually really holding our culture and our values along with our profitability.

Jennifer McClanahan
So the ability to even though our revenues were less, but to have the same net profit, it was like, this really works. Although it is what we do. Like, this really, you can build your culture and be profitable.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. It’s great when you can walk your talk. You know, I mean, I’m, I’m saying that for myself as well. It’s yeah. And it’s, it builds confidence too in what you do, at least for me, you know, when you actually walk your talk. Yeah. You know, so there’s a few things just, okay. Yeah. I tend to be a person that I have a hard time being a boss. Maybe I should start saying as I coach my clients in the past, I had a hard time being a boss. Taking on that, it is a big responsibility and being clear with communication and having high expectations for performance while also having a strong relationship with you know, staff, or their instructors or social media, you know, assistant. So it is, and I feel like actually in the outdoor, I’m gonna say this is a generalization, so I have to be careful, but I do feel that way with like outdoorsy folks who, or maybe it’s just about folks who…

go into a business that they’re passionate about or create a business that they’re passionate about, they’re not passionate about being a boss. They’re passionate about this thing and then you end up being a boss. I think that, yeah, the… don’t do, what do I want to say? So I think that there’s, well, there, you myself and there’s a lot of folks, you know, and so taking responsibility for our power and our role as a boss is important. Cause otherwise I think you mentioned this to me in a call we had like a few weeks ago of, you know, it’s confusing for people when you like back off of your power, you send different signals or you don’t fully communicate, which I have been definitely guilty of in the past.

Jennifer McClanahan
Because people, you have, if you’re in a position of power, people expect you to use it. So when you don’t, they’re confused and you become inconsistent. And I mean, we’ve all had bad bosses where we’re like, they drive us crazy, we don’t like them. But if they’re always bad, it’s easier than someone that you like, who’s never actually consistent. So if you don’t know where they’re going to stand tomorrow, are they really going to follow through? they said they were, but they didn’t really want to have the difficult conversation. So now we’re not doing it.

Um, it’s much more challenging than to have someone maybe that you don’t like. I think I wonder, this is also a generalization, so it can be wrong, but it’s not simply about being a boss. Like often entrepreneurs don’t want the hierarchy of being in a company. So they go and they start their own thing because they’re passionate about it and they want to do the work. This is how I started. loved the work. It was just me. I was looking for a team and I don’t say repelled by hierarchy, but I really like, I’m not interested in the hierarchy, right? And in order for an organization with more than five people to run well, you actually need systems and structures. It doesn’t necessarily mean that hierarchy has to be oppressive, but you do, like if it’s your business, you gotta make the decisions and you gotta let people know what they need or don’t or if they’re needing it or if they’re not.

And people feel like, well, I’m not trying to have a hierarchy. I’m not kind of a flat organization. And we say, MJ, who’s my colleague and I were like, there’s no, there with people, there’s no flat. There’s nothing flat about working with people. We always categorize and structure ourselves in relationship to where other people stand all the time. So if you don’t create the order, people will create their own order, which is how politics start. If there aren’t systems and structures, in order for people to know how things get done, they’ll work around, build relationships around, they’ll do whatever they need to do to build their own safety and certainty. the most ironic thing about not having, using your power and building structures and systems and hierarchy is that it really does lean to politics, which is very disruptive in organizations.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, that is, thanks for sharing that. I’ve seen that in organizations in the outdoor industry and I’ve, and you know, I’m also thinking that I keep bringing it back to kayaking because a lot of my listeners are in the outdoors and I just, I think that what everything you’re saying is so important and can be helpful for folks whether you run your own business or you’re leading a kayaking group. But it’s thinking of as an instructor trainer for kayaking, kayak instructors or stand-up paddleboard instructors. I know there are, or I’ve experienced instructor trainers who don’t wanna have that hierarchy and then they end up not being able to have difficult conversations with instructor candidates who are not, you know, to the level and even some instructor trainers who pass everyone. I’ve seen this. And then because I was chair of the Safety Education Instruction Council, so I saw a lot and that is confusing because then the certification doesn’t mean anything. If everyone gets it, if everyone passes because you’re not willing to have…

difficult conversations with people and set the standards and be really clear from the beginning about how you can achieve this certification, then yeah, it diminishes everything.

Jennifer McClanahan
Yes, and you are not giving the person the option to opt out. Because, right, so when you have an employee and they’re not meeting the standard and you support them to meet the standard, and then they either can’t, or it’s gonna be a lot of work for them to get there, they get to decide whether they wanna put in the effort. They get to decide whether they wanna opt out, but when you’re not…
honest with someone, you’re actually not allowing the use of their own agency.

And that’s why culture gets better and you actually profitability gets better because if you create the capacity where everyone’s choosing to opt in, right, they’re more purposeful, they’re more passionate, they’re more excited. But when you have people who think that kind of halfway doing it is enough, it starts to degrade the culture in a way.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, yeah. So when you said earlier that you were pro-risk, but it kind of stresses you out. So why do you keep doing it? What is the drive to keep doing it?

Jennifer McClanahan
This is why it stresses me out because I don’t know why. was like, this is crazy. After last year, last year was a really difficult year and I was like, do I even need to have a business? Maybe I just, you know, relax and,

Anna Levesque
Ha ha ha ha ha!

Jennifer McClanahan
No, I am driven. I’m really curious. I also love having my own agency and freedom and I’m driven to figure. I’m just driven to figure it out. I have a strong belief in myself and I feel like I would be letting myself down if I didn’t try. It’s an internal dialogue. It’s not, know, the business is good, but I’m not famous. I’m not rich. You know, I’m not like going to be like, you know, living the high life after business. But I love the work and I’m willing to try. I’m willing to try. And you know what’s so interesting with our clients when I tell them about the risk I take and the mistakes that happen and how I didn’t do this right or I’m just super honest about how things really are working. It actually helps them relax a lot. then they don’t feel like they have to be perfect either. They’re like, you you made you did this and it didn’t work.

They understand why, and then it kind of takes down how in relationship with me, they don’t need to be perfect, if that makes sense.

Anna Levesque
Absolutely. Yeah, I feel the same way with my clients too. I just posted a video on my social media of yesterday I went kayaking, it was so cold. I went against my better judgment. It was fun, but it was cold. So I was like, I’m gonna paddle my big creek boats so that I don’t flip over. And then on the first rapid, I totally flipped over and had to roll. Anyways, I think it’s funny to post that stuff. It’s like, yeah, we’re all human.

Like, yeah, we’re all on the journey.

Jennifer McClanahan
I think it helps other people take more risk because you don’t have to be perfect. Right. And the risk is learning. was watching something the other day and I was talking about this gap between not knowing and knowing something. she said that this whole squiggly line is like learning in the middle of learning. And she said the motion that comes with learning often is frustration.

And so if you can tolerate the frustration of learning, right, you have the development and growth. And I think the idea that I’m going to take a risk and it’s going to work or not work, there’s always frustration that come. I mean, I have not taken a risk where there’s some bit of, I had no idea this was going to come with this risk kind of thing. And I got to figure it out. But I love to learn and I’m curious. So I take it as an adventure, a let’s go and let’s try.

But I think some people think that that frustration is failure. And it’s not. It’s just normal.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, frustration. I’m so glad you named that because we think of the discomfort zone as like fear or maybe I frame it that way too, frustration is definitely part of the discomfort zone. mean, that it’s uncomfortable. It sucks to get frustrated and angry and like, you know, or, you know, question yourself and yeah. So it’s all part of it for sure. Yeah.

Jennifer McClanahan
It is, it is. And so my work, I think, you know, in doing this work and being in alignment with what I tell our clients to do was to me actually investigating my own emotions. I’m very good at disassociating from them and just deciding to go forward and because everything will be fine, we’ll work it out. And then actually feeling the emotions, the discomfort, what happens when I’m taking the risk was something newer. I didn’t particularly like it, but it made me.

I still don’t. I would actually rather not talk about emotions, but it has made me a better leader by far. It’s made me a better consultant. You when I work with clients, it’s made me way more compassionate, you know. So in the end, it’s been good. I was not interested in the beginning, but.

Anna Levesque
That’s so interesting, because you just said that you don’t like to talk about your emotions and that’s what you coach people on. some, right, but I can relate, like people, I coach on confidence, courage and empowerment because I want to be in that conversation for myself as well as for others. It makes a difference.

Jennifer McClanahan
think, Anna, too, a good coach is one that’s not so different from you, right? That’s why, coach, you’ve got to find the person that’s the good match for you. Because I’m just a couple steps ahead. When I’m talking about emotions, I’m not talking about it in this lofty, I’m literally two steps ahead of you. So my compassion for where you are and my understanding, but my ability to hold the standard all at the same time comes because I know how, I do get it. I get it. I don’t like it either. And so I’m not shaming or judging because we’re in it together.

So that’s my perspective on it.

Anna Levesque
Do you have a question for me?

Jennifer McClanahan
Gosh, do I have a question? Do you know what? I don’t know if it’s a question, but I would love, I am finding our current political time challenging, all this to say. And I keep thinking back to the conversation that you had and it was someone’s therapist. It was right after the hurricane, Hurricane Helene went through.

Asheville and I, when she said how important it was to tend to yourself. that was like, I mean, you know, we talk about self care, but tend to yourself just meant something so different. So I’m curious. I’m so glad you asked. Like how, how did that resonate for you? Like how do you find yourself tending to yourself still?

Anna Levesque
Mm hmm. Yeah, Somerville. Mm hmm.

Yeah, well, I have always been a big advocate of self-care and tending to myself in the sense of getting outside and kayaking, biking. I started lifting weights again, being really, strong, keeping my feeling strong and getting outside has always been important. And

Being outside, one thing I like about kayaking is that it puts you in the present moment, right? Because you’re looking at the rapid, all you can think about is, okay, this is where I wanna go, I’m looking where I wanna go, I’m taking my strokes, getting to the bottom of the rapid, and then the water keeps going. So, you’re with nature, you’re with the flow, it keeps you in the moment, you’re with people and really getting out of that digital world because I can super get sucked into social media. And so for me getting outside, and it was the same right after Helene as well of, I mean, right after Helene, was tending to yourself, like go get buckets of water from the rain barrels so you can flush the toilet, and so you can do a sponge bath, you know, with the, you know, in a bowl or, and make sure that you go get the water. Like that was more intensive of like, okay, go get a shower at the church parking lot, go, you know. So, which is interesting when the things that we tend to take for granted, like running water and electricity and cell service all go, you know, disappear.

Then you have your immediate community. And so that’s what I mean with like being in the present moment, because we would go to, we would be talking to our neighbors and people would be disseminating information. you know, some people had satellite internet and some people were cooking and sharing meals and checking in on each other. And, you know, when you say you have confidence that you can figure it out, that was actually a really good reminder that as humans, like we are wired for connection and we can figure it out together. I mean, that’s easy to say it was still, it’s not a war zone. It wasn’t like a war zone. People aren’t like, you know, attacking. We weren’t under attack by someone else, which would be a different story. But you know, in, so I think having, and yeah.

Sometimes I have to remind myself, like get out of the house with people doing fun stuff, doing stuff in person.

Jennifer McClanahan
Yeah, I mean, really think that tending to yourself, part of that is being present in the moment with yourself and the people that you’re with, either way. I appreciate that. I think, you know, it makes also why in disasters, the nature of the disaster puts you in the present moment. And so being in the present moment and building connection is it’s almost a necessity when you know tragedy strikes and so I appreciate that a lot and thank you for that answer.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, you’re welcome. I think in the current political situation also is being present with people because on social media, it’s so easy to vilify and to spread misinformation on all sides and to get it’s… And so I’m not sharing a whole lot on social media. And sometimes I’m like, I need to be more of an activist on social media, but then…

It’s like, do I really want to spend my time and energy doing that or doing other things, you know, with people or, you know, whatever steps that I’m taking to stay informed and, and have conversations and, you know,

Jennifer McClanahan
found out about myself, it was probably, I don’t know, over the last 10, 15 years when people march or they’re like, I am not gonna not an activist, but I’m not an activist marcher. Like I’m not gonna join march kind of person. And I was like, can you say you believe what you believe if you’re not willing to go and take up signs and march?

And I began to understand what I am as a connector. I would rather spend my time getting to know someone who is different from me and what we have in common or how do you build through. I would rather invest my energy across difference. That is how I’m wired. I love activists. support activists. If you want to protest, you should protest.

And it’s not the way that I feel impactful or effective. What I feel impactful or effective is helping people connect with other people, especially if it’s different. So that was a lot. I had to learn that about myself. not because I don’t have a strong inner critic. I don’t criticize myself so much for not doing that thing and going towards the thing that just feels risky, it’s not easy, but I’m in alignment with who I know I am and how I want to show up in the world when I do

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah, thanks for sharing that. And I think that’s really important. The other thing about social media, and I know you do well because you’re not on social media, but there are some positive stuff that I appreciate about social media, especially my business. It’s very important. But the other thing is that you can fall into everyone has to do it this way, or you’re not creating change, or you’re not doing it right. You know, so I appreciate you.

Jennifer McClanahan
You know, I talking to someone, I was listening to Ezra Klein. He was interviewing some conservative person talking about, this is going to be the worst intro of what was happening, but he was talking to someone who was conservative about what’s happening with Trump and White House and you know, Ezra, I don’t know necessarily that he’s liberal not, but this person was really pretty conservative. But at the end, what this person was saying, I can’t remember his name.

You know, saying that the reason, you know, talking about Congress and working across difference and how that doesn’t happen, right? And how much that’s been a problem. And I was like, you know, cause he was like, well, I’m not really for diversity and equity inclusion and everything’s colorblind, but I’m a very much a constitutionalist. And I was like, okay, first of all, the constitution isn’t colorblind. The constitution talks about black people and like they’re three fifths counted. And then they in the 14th amendment become right, fully counted. it’s the constitution is very cognizant of color, one, but number two,

What you’re talking about in Congress is actually being respectful of differences and understanding how you connect across difference. was, I was like, that is what, like diversity is a fact. It’s not a group of people. It’s not a thing. It doesn’t matter what color we are, what our gender is. At the core, when we were together, there are things about us that are alike and there are things about us that are different in any group, no matter what the composition of the group is.

And the goal is to connect across the differences and respect the differences within the group. And sometimes that difference makes you come up with an idea, a perspective, a thought that you otherwise would not have done. And so it was just interesting because he was talking about being conservative in a way that I was like, dude, you’re really actually talking about working across difference. And that you can be really conservative and someone else can be really liberal.

But it doesn’t mean you can’t get work done. So it was just a fascinating conversation for me. I thought it was interesting. Anyway, not that I want to come here and talk about politics too much.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Mm-hmm. I know it’s such a, it’s such a heated thing, yeah.

We can get into rapid fire questions.

Jennifer McClanahan
Let’s do it. Let’s do it.

Anna Levesque
What’s a morning ritual that sets you up for success?

Jennifer McClanahan
Hydration. I wake up in the morning, I drink water, a big glass of water, and then I drink lemon water. And I try to actually not do anything when I drink my lemon water. And you know what? Unbeknownst to me, my sister who is six years older than me does the same thing. One day we were together at a friend’s house and we both wanted hot water. And they were like, you both want hot water? And I was like, look at that, we’re related.

Anna Levesque
That’s awesome. That’s great. So that’s good hydration. it. Okay. What’s a non-negotiable self-care practice?

Jennifer McClanahan
Yes, hydration.

I do weights, I work out and I do a lot of weightlifting and I hire someone who helps me weight lift. I have a trainer because he’s much better at putting together a plan than I am. So it’s not just that I weight lift, I actually invest time and money such that I can just do, I can go to the gym, I know what I’m gonna do and I just keep doing it and I love it.

Anna Levesque
Yep, I’m with you on that one. Yeah, it’s great. Okay, what’s a favorite book, talk or song?

Jennifer McClanahan
The War of the Mother Sons, I read that book a while. Actually, my mother, my ex-mother-in-law, I was married, we’re not married anymore, but I see her all the time. She was a librarian and she gave me that book. And it was like learning about my mom and dad. It was like, and my grandparents, it was like, it was a whole journey of history in the United States that I didn’t know. But like reading the book explained so much about like how I was raised and our life.

And it was really awesome. it was also, it opened up a door of compassion for myself.

Anna Levesque
Mm. Yeah, that’s beautiful. I have not read The Warmth of Other Suns. I have read Caste and yeah, excellent book. Thank you for, yeah, reminding me about Warmth of Other Suns.

Yeah, it’s good. It’s good. It’s so good.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, she’s a great writer. She’s amazing. Okay, what do people get wrong about you?

Jennifer McClanahan
Gosh, I’m such an open book. Most people pretty much read me and get it right.

Anna Levesque
That’s fine. That can be your answer too. I mean, there’s no right or wrong answer.

Jennifer McClanahan
Yes, not much.

Anna Levesque
Okay. Throughout the course of your life, have you felt like the underdog or the favored to win? I think I know the answer. No, no, no, you say it. want to…

Jennifer McClanahan
I feel like an underdog, I actually, yes, but I actually think I’m favored to win. I mean, I believe in the underdog. am an underdog. will fight for the underdog. Like the underdog, but I actually kind of think maybe I’m favored to win.

Anna Levesque
Really?

Yeah, that’s what I would have said.

Jennifer McClanahan
Yes, but I like I earned that one. I earned it.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, like it. Okay, hard moves in easy water or flooding?

Jennifer McClanahan
So, you know, I don’t know exactly what this means. I don’t know the difference, but I think I might be a flutter. don’t, you know, I don’t.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, that you’re pro-risk, like how you’re like, invest high dollars and entrepreneur and business and I jump in and figure stuff out. That’s flooding for sure.

Jennifer McClanahan
Yeah, I’m a flooder. I want to say Hard Moves in Easy Water because it would be sensible, but…

Anna Levesque
Well, I think there’s, you know, there’s, I’m, I’m both, which is funny because people would probably think I’m a, I love progression for sure. But the, and there’s also been times in my life where I just jumped in. Like I never knew anything about kayaking when I jumped into that. Like at some point you just, jump in, you know.

Jennifer McClanahan
But you know what, as a leader, what’s interesting, if you are a flooder, it’s very helpful if you create systems to make hard moves and easy water for the people that you manage. Right? Yes. Yeah. There’s my hard moves and easy water.

Anna Levesque
Absolutely. Necessary. Yes. Yes. Love it. Okay. What’s one word that describes your comfort zone?

Jennifer McClanahan
My comfort zone.

Probably cake, you know?

Anna Levesque
Yeah, that’s a good one. Yes. Yeah, I’m a baked good person. Chocolate chips, yeah.

Jennifer McClanahan
Give me like a cake with some frosting and I can become at one with myself.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, love it. I just have to say yesterday after kayaking in the cold too, I was immediately beeline to the first coffee shop on our way home for hot chocolate and pumpkin coffee cake. It was just so good, rainy, cold outside. You just did something outside and you were freezing and now you’re holding this amazing soft baked good and the hot chocolate.

So good. Okay, freedom through discipline or I do what I want.

Jennifer McClanahan
I do not like people telling me what to do. So I do think I have to say I do what I want, but I am very disciplined. I am very disciplined. That’s, mean, I will, if this is the thing that I need to do, I will get up and I will do it. No one has to tell me what to do. You know, so I do what I want to do, but I can be very disciplined about it, if that makes sense.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, in one word, what do you hope your legacy will be?

Jennifer McClanahan
connection.

Anna Levesque
Awesome. Is there anything else you want to tell our listeners?

Jennifer McClanahan
You know what? had my daughter gave a speech at school. She’s a senior and she talked about me in the speech and it was the first time anyone in my family actually spoke out loud about the impact that I have on them. And it was like really life changing moment and it just made me. Appreciate how important it is to tell people how you feel about them and let them know that they are.

So what I love to connect with people, I don’t always receive how people are experiencing the connection with me. And that really was a life changing, especially because she’s a teenager and I don’t think she’d have anything nice to say about me. it was, it felt really, really good. I don’t, because I hadn’t experienced it, I didn’t realize how good it felt. And it makes me want to make sure I do that for other

Anna Levesque
Yeah, that’s awesome. I think that in our culture also, we have a tendency to only acknowledge people for things they do or accomplish. And it’s just as, or even more powerful to acknowledge people for who they are in the world. Yeah, yeah. And so…

Jennifer McClanahan
and how they make you feel. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
I acknowledge you, Jennifer, being a role, just being. Confidence comes to mind, that courage, especially with difficult conversations. I’ve seen that in action and it inspires me. And I really, really appreciate you and appreciate that I get to connect with you and have really meaningful conversations and fun conversations. So thank you for sharing yourself with my listeners on this episode.

Jennifer McClanahan
100%. Thank you so much for having me. And I love, Anna, you bring a whole other perspective to my life that has made it so much richer. So thank you so much.