Anna Levesque
My guest today, Brad Burden, is a former pro kayaker and kayak instructor, turned basketball coach, teacher, husband, and father. He’s a travel, bike, and food enthusiast, still trying to find adventure and discomfort in everyday life. Thanks for being here, Brad. Yeah. Yeah, you too. You too. So I start with, when I say discomfort zone, what comes up for you?

Brad Burden
Thanks for having me. So good to see ya.

Yeah, it changes over the years, right? mean, when we were young in our 20s, and I mean, you’re still kayaking a lot, but whenever I was kayaking a lot, was all about trying to push yourself to run extreme whitewater or to get sponsored or go to a competition. And now as a father and a teacher and a coach, it can mean a lot of different things, helping a teenage daughter navigate through life. But I would say right now, discomfort zone is just trying to manage life’s and things, jobs, and work, and bills, and family in a way that is trying to maintain positivity.

Anna Levesque
Hmm, yeah. I really hear you. And do you use like strategies or whitewater analogies to help you navigate everyday life like today?

Brad Burden
All the time. Yeah. And living in the Midwest, most of those analogies get lost on everybody except for myself. But yeah, all the time, whether it’s like, you know, go with the flow or we need to just Eddie out here and take a pause and let’s read the situation instead of you’re getting to meet Luke. And so, yeah, all the time using…

I don’t know how much analogies, a little bit of that, but definitely lessons learned from that. Just being able to be present in the moment. When you’re above a big rapid, know, famous videos, adventures of Johnny Utah, you think they mentioned that, like you can’t be thinking about your credit card bill above gorilla. But that’s live too, you know, like…

If I’m going into a class, I can’t be thinking about whatever that my daughter’s struggling in math class, because I’m about to go teach a class. So I have to be focused on the students in front of me and then handle that situation later in the evening, or I can’t be focused on the traffic that I got into in downtown Louisville on the way once I get to school. So it’s all about just being present. And I think kayaking really teaches you that.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm, yeah, agree. With kayaking, it kind of forces you into that because it’s so intensive, right? Like in terms of stimulus coming in through, that’s awesome, right? In terms of stimulus coming in through five senses, you know what I mean? So you’re in it and I think that’s what…

a lot of us appreciate about Whitewater is it does push you to be in the present moment. Because if you’re not, then you’re gonna, I don’t know, get trashed or something not great might happen. In a setting like going into a classroom, which I love that you brought that up because it could be going to a classroom, giving a talk, giving a presentation at work, any type of performance. But there’s not the white water right in front of you. So how do you bring yourself to the present moment when you’re walking into a classroom, for instance?

Brad Burden
Yeah, it’s hard or you know, I think a analogy maybe just or example would be going to practice because I really put like my coaching career very similar to my kayaking career. And that’s why I was able to like transition so quickly between the two is because it enabled me to channel all of my competitive juices and seeing my team reach the highest level that they possibly can was very similar to the joy that I got, whether it was competing in kayaking, traveling, or teaching a kayaking class, or like with huge experiences, coaching youth, expert kayakers. So I think it’s just all about, it’s the same thing when I get home in the evening. It’s the people in front of me, what do they need from me right then? And they need, whether it’s my class, my team, my family, they need me to be at my best and to be able to give my full attention at that moment. Now that’s not to say once we get home and…

dinner’s cooked and we don’t sit around and open up our phone and watch TV, of course. You’re not always just laser focused locked in a home, but if there’s a situation going on and they need you, it’s what exactly needs to happen in this moment? And especially with leading trips, and I know you’re still doing a lot of those, you can’t be thinking about what I need in this moment. It’s what does the group need and what do they need from me to help the group succeed?

Anna Levesque
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I love how you mentioned one. love that. I mean, I what I heard you say is when we’re with other people or a group or a community or a team, if we really pay attention in the moment, those people can actually bring out the best in us because if we walk in, with the mindset of what can I contribute. It doesn’t mean that we should never be contributed to. That’s something actually that I struggle with, honestly. It’s much easier for me to contribute and to step into that space. What I do like about it is kind what you mentioned, because when I step in, I feel like those other people lift me up to a higher standard of being, of paying attention and of performance actually. It’s not a physical performance like kayaking. is a, what type of person do I want to be? Like my highest and best person showing up in this moment. And there is something very satisfying about that, I think.

Brad Burden
Absolutely. mean as you get older and you take on roles like you have and I like like I have it’s no longer about What are you getting out of it? You know very much so like I Teased my wife all the time if I would have met her six months earlier in my life It would not have been a long-term relationship Because I was very much self-centered about what feels good and what basically what do I need to do to have fun on the water and when I get off the water tomorrow? That was very much the concern of my life in my early 20s. And that’s now a big picture of like planning for retirement and helping my daughter plan for her college and, you know, things around the house and buying a new car like we did this weekend, just, you know, stuff like that, which is very much a discomfort. You start planning for your future and not just worried about what feels good in the moment.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. What had you shift, Brad? Was there a moment or a mindset or something happened that made you shift?

Brad Burden
It probably coincided with the shift of not really wanting to leave the whitewater world. I grew up in Southern Indiana. I grew up playing basketball, but I had a dad who kayaked and would take me to NLC. And so that was supposed to just be a fun summer job. then I excelled at it early on and was able to have some success. And so I pursued it. And of course, it took me to amazing, wonderful places and met amazing, wonderful people like this.

Girl from Canada that I meet in Mexico just randomly and started a 20 plus year friendship. So there was a moment when I shifted to going, and I always wanted to be a teacher and a coach. That’s what I grew up wanting to do until I got into Whitewater. But I was leading huge experiences and we were going to the slave river, which for people who don’t know,

It’s about a 30 hour drive from the border of Montana and Canada. So you’re going to be in a car and have some alone, you know, lot of isolation time. And so, and this is kind of pre smartphone. So we stopped at a bookstore in Calvary, Canada. And I told all the kids is like, buy books, buy magazines. And I did the same thing. And I’m just kind of looking through the shelves and I picked up a coaching book by John Wooden.

And I teased and say it was the worst, you know, worst mistake of my life. And so I was in the middle of summer and I’m in the middle of leading kids down the slave river. And at night I’m reading coaching strategies and motivation by John Wooden. And I was like, you know what? I still really miss coaching and want to do that some more. And it wasn’t long after that, that I, you know, kind of transitioned and started coaching at a local high school near Bryson city, Swaine County high school, where your husband’s a graduate of, then moved back home to Indiana the rest is kind of history.

But that kind of coincided with a shift mentally of, know, then wanting to give to people. Cause even when I was coaching and teaching when I was young, looking back on it, there was still a lot of ego driven there and I was like, watch what I can do. And, you know, so it was a shift that started happening about that time in my life in all aspects.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. think because, well, when I think about it too, when you’re coaching, because Huge Experiences was like a high level coaching program. And so it can be challenging when you’re so close to competition. I mean, when you have just competed, and I know I felt that way when I coached for Adventure Quest back in the day.

That was a long time ago, which by the way, yeah, just in Chile with David Hughes. So kind of like full circle. When you’re so close to it, it’s kind of, yeah, there’s that, it’s hard to explain, but there’s the thing of still wanting the street cred, especially with like the young badasses and then…

really setting that aside and focusing on the coaching. And honestly, think it just depends. I think that for myself, I did have like more of an ego as well. And you sometimes the ego is helpful. It’s kept me in it, honestly, because I do want to be someone who still paddles class four and still runs some, you know, waterfalls within reason and all that good stuff. So it does have a positive side and

I think I used to collapse my self-worth with my paddling performance. And if I’m worried about that and trying to coach, it takes away from the coaching is what you’re saying. And so that was also for me stepping away from competition and really finding joy in the coaching has been really, well, I love it. Just, you know, I love coaching. So kayaking.

Brad Burden
Absolutely.

Yeah, looking back on it, I was just like, what in the world was any of those parents thinking and David Hughes thinking for giving me a car and a credit card? I was 22 years old, taking 16 year olds, literally all over North America and responsible for them on the water and on the road and cooking and cleaning. it was no pun intended, but quite the experience. But yeah, looking back on it, I like, I was 21, 22 years old. What was I doing?

Anna Levesque
Hahaha!

Well, I mean, what did you learn about yourself that summer? I mean, you made it because kids made it.

Brad Burden
Yeah, I mean, actually, we got the kids all met. I mean, this is like super scary story. So we are above like one of the big rapids on the slave and another kayaker, Aaron Napoleon, was with me and Calif Letourney. So like we had a really solid team and had probably eight to ten kids and we had we were scouting this rapid and we had safety set up. But the river is so huge and it braids off into so many different islands. I don’t know if you’ve been there or not, but.

This kid swam and we could not tell which channel he had. mean, that’s one of those things where the water’s so big, you’re down a trough of a wave, you can’t see anything, you come up and you’re trying to see. And we looked for him for what felt like hours and I was just certain that he had flushed around and I was gonna have to call his parents to tell their 16 year old son that he perished kayaking. But he swam to a different island.

Anna Levesque
Wow.

Brad Burden
and we could not see and could not hear him. And the whole time he’s trying to wave at us to tell us, here I am. But we couldn’t see him. I I jumped out of my boat and tackled him and hugged him. And I think it was kind of at that moment really when I kind of realized like, I don’t really want to have people’s, especially their children’s lives in my hands.

Anna Levesque
my goodness. Yeah.

Brad Burden
And when we got back from the Slave, I called Dave Hughes and I was like, I can’t do this anymore. And I flew home from Calvary and Aaron and Caleb drove them across the country and Pete Gallo came up to the Ottawa to relieve me. And I kind of transitioned that fall into coaching basketball. Looking back on it, that was probably more traumatic than I realized and having to transition out of it. Now when I’m coaching basketball or teaching a health class, there’s really, know, lives really aren’t the balance. there was a life in the balance that day and it was a scary feeling. That’s major discomfort. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Right.

Yeah, that is really intense. Major discomfort. Yeah, that’s really intense. it is something to think about with kayak coaching, even not running the biggest stuff. It is a big responsibility. yeah, it is something that I consider. that’s why I like hard moves in easy water.

And you know, nice progressions. So yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that’s interesting.

Brad Burden
Yeah, until I told that, mean, I’ve told that story, you know, many times until I just explained it to you just now and did it with the thought process of your question is the first time it ever hit me. It was like, that was probably a pivotal moment for me mentally to like, I’m kind of done with this, especially leading other people. And then, yeah, so.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, and I think what it’s pointing to too is that it’s so important to have that self-awareness, self-knowledge. It probably helped that you were reading that book, honestly, and to really pay attention to what’s important to you, right? And making those decisions, because it could be easy to ignore that, maybe.

And it sounds like it was the right and perfect decision for you to make that shift.

Brad Burden
Yeah, I think so. mean, it led me to meeting my wife and it’s funny, I met her while I was living with Pete Gallo and his wife, Liz, and I met my wife in that fall when I started coaching at Swain County High School. And Liz actually went with me on our first date and Donna thought that I brought a girl to the date and it was just Liz. Liz was being my wingman and then I told Liz she could leave. But it just led to… our marriage and we’re coming up on 20 years this summer and then my daughter turns 15 this week. yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. And I know you mentioned the discomfort of parenting. And I think that’s a big one, you know, that I’m not a parent myself. And I watch friends who are parents and family members and yeah, it’s a challenge and there’s no manual, right? I don’t think there’s any one right way to go about it. And so how do you approach, what’s your philosophy in parenting and navigating that discomfort?

Brad Burden
It’s changed tremendously in the last two to three years. My daughter has, she’s doing extremely well now, but for the last three to four years, she struggled a lot with mental health. And I kind of parented and coached the way I was raised and coached, which was to just suck it up and get on the line as coaches like to yell at their team, which means to just take off and run wind sprints and kind of parent that way to just like, you know, I’ll give you something to cry about. That’s definitely the way I was raised in a good way. You know, definitely had a great upbringing by my mom and my dad, my grandparents. And that was kind of my default. Just by nature, you know, was like, your room. I walk in, clean your room. And then realizing that that’s not an effective way to teach, coach, parent. And so really having, and it definitely doesn’t have a very positive impact on mental health. So.

You know, being able to listen, still be firm and still be able to get your point across and what you’re the lessons you’re trying to impart, whether it’s again in the classroom, on the court or at home. But without yelling and screaming, you know, not that I was like an ogre running around just yelling and screaming at people, but you know, once patients got lost, that was my default. So that’s really been a major change and challenge for me in the last five years is like, you know, what is needed in this moment and what is this person, again player, student, or my daughter, or my wife even, what do they need from me right now? And me getting upset is probably not going to get the best result.

Anna Levesque
Right. Yeah, that’s very self-reflective. What had you again shift mindset? Did you read a book? Did you get coaching from someone? How did you make that shift?

Brad Burden
I read a lot and probably a lot of John Gordon type books and stuff like that probably really helped with that, like Energy Bus. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that. then just really, John, J-O-N Gordon, really good motivational speaker and author. has a great book called The Energy Bus and then there’s a whole series after that. And just kind of looking at like,

Again, staying positive in situations. And what’s funny is like, I’m Mr. Positivity. Like things are always going to work out well until I get mad about something. And then it’s not that it’s all of sudden going to go to pieces. And I think negatively, it’s just like, I’m going to get my point across. And it might be louder than what you want it to be. So, you know, again, just really changing that of like, no one likes to be yelled at. But again, especially in basketball coaching, everybody was brought up a certain way and coached certain way and everybody thinks that’s the way a coach is supposed to behave. And is that really going to get the best result of your team in that moment or your daughter in that moment? You know, the answer that’s probably not. I had this parent once tell me, ask me why I yell at their daughter. I said, well, I’m trying to get my point across from number one and I’m trying to prepare her for the real world. And she said, what job does their boss yell at them? And I went, military maybe? was like, that’s a really good point. I don’t think boss is just going around yelling and screaming at their employees too often. And if so, they’re probably not going to be the boss very long. So I was like, that’s a really good point. Why am I yelling at a 15 year old who turned them all over?

Anna Levesque
Right. Or training them to take that that behavior is normal versus, you know, so then if they did have a boss that yelled at them that they would put up with it because they thought that that’s the way, kind of like what you’re saying, you were brought up with it. So like, that’s what was normal. And so that’s what you’re doing. And like to be able to break that cycle, I acknowledge you because it’s, I mean, it requires vulnerability.

It requires listening, requires a willingness to be open-minded and change, which is not easy and sounds like it’s been worth it for you.

Brad Burden
Yeah, absolutely. What’s funny though and interesting is my players from my previous school that I was at for 16 years as a head coach, I was 28 years old when I got the head coaching job there. So, you know, really young and again thought the way that you do things is to yell and scream and kick basketballs and make them run and stuff. Cause that’s what my coach did. Those players are when they come back, they would see me coach like, you’ve gotten soft coach. you know, you’re so easy on them. And these kids that these older kids are saying I’m easy on, they’re complaining that I’m too hard on them.

But the older ones are talking about how easy it is. I am on them. But the older ones are still like some of the ones that stay in contact the most. And I was like, I was so hard on you. I’m so sorry. And they’re like, you taught me so much. so that makes it really worth it. And not saying it was like, well, that was the way to do things. And I’m certainly, I’m sure not all of them felt that way. But just the other day, one of my former players had graduated in 2013. Just texted me out of the blue, hey, how you doing, coach? I was thinking about you. was like, that’s awesome.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, that is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I think about that sometimes even with my own upbringing. And I’ve mentioned like the podcast episode I did with my dad. And I was talking to him about this. Like, I really appreciate that when he took me, he put me in the ski racing program and I like cried and was like,

I’m not going to be good. No one’s going to like me.” And he’s like, you’re doing it. And he dropped me off. And at the end of the day, I was so stoked. I loved it so much. then ski racing became my focus in high school and still passionate about it today. And that wouldn’t have happened if he had not been tough on me. Same thing with speaking three languages. That only is because my dad, I got bullied in school for speaking being from an English household and speaking English. I went to French school because my dad’s French-Canadian. That was important to him. Then he was like, no, you’re staying in French school. You can do it. Then it set me up to learn Spanish. Now I’m fluent in Spanish, French, and English. In the end, it really paid off even though it was really hard. I would have appreciated a bit more emotional intelligence for sure growing up as in…

Brad Burden
Ha ha.

Anna Levesque
to be able to process the bullying. know what I mean? But at the end of the day, I really appreciated that. And there’s also something to be said for not pushing people too hard. I think what you’re saying of I think the self-awareness and the situational awareness of like, what does the person in front of me need right now? Like what…

and being willing to have that conversation with them. So you’re not making choices just from, this is how it was for me. So this is how it’s going to be for you. But rather, do they need more push? Do they need me to back off? Because that’s tech coach, know, I, some people I know that they want me to push them. Some people I know they don’t. So you have to, you can’t just do the same thing all the time.

Brad Burden
Absolutely, and that’s you know, it’s a balance of like again. It goes back to how how do I get the mode this how do I get this person to reach their fullest potential and Whether again, whether that’s my daughter my players My my class I tell my class. I’m so lucky I get to teach health And so the reason that that is I feel like I’m so lucky there is because it’s the one class that the name of the class Is not the subject the subject is them and it’s the one class that I might teach them something that might save their life. mean, I’m kind of being hyperbolic there. But if I teach them about the values of not vaping and they end up not or refusal skills when it comes to drinking or something in teenage drinking or whatever the case may be. math class, they learn about math and they may be sitting there going, when am I ever going to use this? And a good teacher can help them know when they might use it. But in health class, that’s pretty obvious. So what I tell all my students is I’m just here to help you become the best version of yourself.

Anna Levesque
Right.

Brad Burden
And that’s ultimately what I do, whether it’s on the basketball floor, at home with my daughter or my students, or just in myself, you know, finding ways to challenge myself with cycling and traveling or whatever the case may be.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, think that’s really important. always tell when I’m training instructors in kayaking, I always say, the best instructors are students first. Challenge yourself to walk your talk and to challenge yourself how you’re challenging others. That’s what I hear you saying, which is really, really important.

Yes, bringing out the potential in others is so satisfying. Have you read Adam Grant’s book, Hidden Potential?

Brad Burden
I’ve not, but that sounds like something I would be all over.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, it’s a great book and you might really enjoy it.

Brad Burden
Okay, I’ll check it out. Yeah, I’ll definitely check it out.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, there is something else. I wanted to circle back because you were saying that you’re… And I don’t know how much or little you want to talk about this. I’m not attached, talking about you were saying your daughter has struggled with mental health. And I think it’s really challenging right now in our culture for girls, middle school, teenage, high school girls. It is a challenge and…

And so I don’t know if you want to talk about, because that’s a huge discomfort and how to, especially with social media.

Brad Burden
I’m actually more than happy to talk about it. Yeah, I’m more than happy to talk about it because my daughter doesn’t mind because we look at, we see the value of bringing awareness to it. And so the more that people talk about it and don’t put a stigma on discussing it, know, the more that we can get help for people. As a health teacher, 20 years, I started teaching health almost 20 years ago and mental emotional health was the chapter in the back of the book. And I was like, as long as kids don’t…
do drugs, as long as they eat right, as as they exercise. the mental and emotional health, like, well, if you’d feel inside, go outside, you know, get some sunshine, listen to some music and you’ll be fine. Now the mental and emotional health section is at the very front of the book. And it’s two chapters long, where it used to be two pages long. So I think we’re doing a good job as a society of bringing more awareness to it. But unfortunately, we have such an uphill battle to climb because of how many factors are working against us from social media, body image things, which again, tied in with social media, but just all of it. I’m not so sure that bullying is worse or better than it was 30, 40 years ago when we were in school. I don’t know. I think I have a perception on it because I went through high school and now I’ve been teaching high school for 20 years and now raising a high schooler. I think there’s less face-to-face bullying you know, now it’s done more behind a keyboard. But yeah, it’s a it’s an it’s an epidemic right now. I think it’s the most important thing that we do as educators and parents now is to help them with their mental health. And it’s so hard because you’re trying to balance out with trying to raise them and make them tough and make them resilient, but at the same time being careful and cautious of their mental emotional state.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Do you think that those two things are mutually exclusive though to like not teach, but to cultivate resilience, of like toughness, ability to face challenges and mental, emotional health? I feel like they’re, those two things are together. It’s not an either or. So how have you navigated that whole thing?

Brad Burden
Yeah, a thousand percent. think they’re directly connected. I mean, think the more resilient and tough people can be, the more apt they are to overcome challenges and adversities they face in life. But I think where the difficulty is in that moment when somebody is in crisis, you know, this was really hard for me to learn because again, whether it’s talking somebody down a rapid or just getting myself down a rapid or coaching my basketball team when we’re down five in the fourth quarter, that response looks much different than when your 13 year old daughter’s having a mental health crisis. And my initial response was, let me coach you through this. Let me just give you a motivational talk and everything will be fine. We can do this. You’re tough. can, know, well, that’s not what she needed in that moment. And so I really had to evolve with a lot of pushing an education for my wife who has really done a good job of helping me evolve and how I recognize and handle and deal with situations like that. And so it’s kind of like, you know, if somebody comes into the ER for the heart attack and you’re lecturing them because they eat cheeseburgers, it’s like, well, we’ve got to fix, you know, we’ve got to get this artery open first. Then now we’ve got the person back to a point of stability, now we can look at their diet or their exercise. And that’s kind what I was doing is this person was in emergency situation and I’m talking to them about being tough. It’s like, well, that’s not helping right now. And so it was a big evolution and continues to be for me, for my daughter, for everybody involved. Like I said, thankfully she’s doing really well now. She’s in a new high school and has a good group of friends.

Peer relationships are so important at this age. I’m finding out more so than I ever knew.

Anna Levesque
Hmm. Yeah. What was the thing that maybe one thing that your wife said to you or that helped you shift to be able to be more helpful?

Brad Burden
I don’t know if it was one thing, just basically in that moment, she’s like, this isn’t helping. And not exactly what I wanted to hear because I thought it was helping. But then self-reflection and watching her deal with it, there’s times where certainly my approach is exactly what my daughter needs. And then there’s other times my wife’s approach is exactly what my daughter needs. It all depends on the situation of what Eva is my daughter’s name. So whatever Eva’s kind of struggling with or dealing with or just whatever the case may be in that moment, it’s good, I think, to have parents that have the same values and are pointing in the same direction, but maybe coming at it from different perspectives.

Anna Levesque
and being able to communicate that as well, think. Communicate with each other, you know, and I think that’s…

Brad Burden
Yeah, and that was hard early on, like when we first started down that road. And it’s a lot easier now just because of our shared experience with it.

Anna Levesque
And what was just in case someone’s listening and they might be going through the same thing with one of their kids, like what was something that was super helpful? Was it getting help? Was it therapy? Do you have any advice or strategies to offer?

Brad Burden
all encompassing, first just be there, listen, try to get them involved in as many things as possible, have positive outlets, therapy.

positive, like I said, positive outlet, whether it’s art or music, but definitely talking to someone if it’s not a family member. Because sometimes we’re not equipped with the right kind of language to listen and help them. So I definitely think therapy has a big role in place in that as well.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing and I’m glad Eva’s doing better and thriving. It’s great. Love to hear that.

Brad Burden
Yes, yes, it’s been a major relief and major, you know, it continues to always be a stress, right, when you’re raising a teenager, but when you don’t have to worry about that on a daily basis.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Yeah. And it sounds like you all were willing to make a big change, like changing schools and yeah. I think that, you know, from the conversation so far, it sounds like you’re very, what I love is that you’re a coach and you sound very coachable. Like as in you’re willing to listen and take in other perspectives.

Brad Burden
My wife might disagree, but I try to be. know I try to. It just might sometimes take me a little while to get there. You know, in that moment, I may not be the most coachable or teachable, but no, I definitely try to be and try to just continue to grow and evolve. And, you know, I wish I knew what I know now 20 years ago kind of thing. But, you know, just all about.

Anna Levesque
Hahaha

Brad Burden
growth and being the best version of who you can be in that moment.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And being, as I mentioned before, being a great coach, mean, great coaches, I think, are coachable because no one’s perfect. We all are on a growth. I mean, that’s what life is about, growth, change. The only constant in life is change, so.

Brad Burden
Sure, absolutely.

Yeah, and the moment you stop learning or growing is the moment it’s over. So yeah, constantly wanting to get better. You know, as a coach, 20 years into my basketball coaching career, just had a major change and moved on from being at the place I was at for the last 16 years as a head coach and left there last season and spent this last year back as an assistant coach with one of my best friends and I actually learned more this year as an assistant coach probably than I did in the 16 years prior combined just because I was no longer in charge and there was somebody else who was in charge that I could learn from every day. was awesome.

Anna Levesque
That’s great. I love that. Sometimes our egos too can get really into like, well. And actually when I was just in Chile, what’s interesting is I was on a, just went to Chile to celebrate a friend’s birthday and we did a multi-sport trip. So we had guides who are actually colleagues. You know what I mean? And I really challenged myself to be like, I’m going to be guided.

It is, it actually gave me space to reflect on my style. I’m not comparing my style versus their style. It’s simply like, that’s interesting or that’s great. Just have a good to step back and like you said, learn. It takes a willingness to be like, I’m going to let go of the… need to be in charge or to be the leader or whatever it is that the ego can sometimes, you know, rear its head. And it’s a great opportunity to learn and to relax, to give yourself more space, you know.

Brad Burden
Yeah, it was really nice to be able to like if I had to take Eva to a doctor’s appointment or if I needed to run somewhere like I’m leaving practice 30 minutes early and I’ll see you tomorrow. Whereas the head coach, there’s no leaving early. you know, I had it for a lot of our listeners that may seem pretty trivial or elementary, but like high school basketball in Indiana is super, super competitive. It’s like Texas football or Florida football. And so

You know, it’s it’s really competitive and really challenging and you it’s a Probably a six to eight hour Commitment per day on top of your teaching job, which of course pays most of your salary So, you know, you’re working well into the night breaking down game film and things like that So it was nice to be in a situation was like I’ll watch a little game film tonight and I’ll help you know, all right, you know Or I can’t because I’m cooking dinner and I’m hanging out with the family and I’ll watch after they go to bed. Whereas a head coach, you don’t get that choice.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Do you have any questions for me, Brad?

Brad Burden
So what keeps you motivated to continue kayaking and leading trips? I know you’ve branched and you’ve evolved with like your coaching business and more like the, you know, mental performance space, but just kayaking in general. I mean, you’ve been kayaking now for what? 30 years? Like what? 40 years? 30, 35? Don’t want to age you too much there. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, I’ve been kayaking for 30 years. Yeah, that’s fine.

Brad Burden
So what keeps you motivated to keep doing that?

Anna Levesque
I, the joy of it, well, what keeps me motivated?

I don’t feel like I have to do it all the time. what is my answer? What keeps me motivated? Okay. The joy of it being outside, connecting with water and people. Connecting with nature and connecting with people is what keeps me in it. And then of course, the joy of the actual moves. It’s really fun. And I also…
take time off and do other sports as well. And especially as I’ve older, it’s in my 20s, paddling was it. And now I allow myself, like, right, yeah. And now I ski in the winter. I take two to three months off in the winter from kayaking besides Costa Rica. And

Brad Burden
Right. 300 days a year.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. And so I, yeah, I give myself this, this time and the space and time. And also, I allowed myself to, at one point really only paddle class three, cause I got scared on class five and I had fun. then I just, it’s interesting because I spent a lot of time on class three and was teaching a lot. And then this desire just bubbled up inside of me. It was like, would really like to get back on class four. And then I was piling class four. And then it was like, I really want to get back on the Green. And I allowed it to happen organically without like pushing myself like you have to do this.

So I, and actually when I was just in Chile, it was funny because I was piling the upper Chancura, which is a class three, four section with some drops. The water is, is on the low side. So it was like rapid drops, you know, and the guy, my friends were all in a raft and then the safety kayaker was taking me down, showing me the lines cause I don’t remember them at all. And he was a 24 year old and was so pumped, excellent boater. It’s funny because I’ve gotten into a comfort zone where I paddle with people I trust and know. It’s easy for me to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, tell me again what this is. I want more information. He would tell me and it was all in Spanish, and he would tell me and he was so pumped to go. I was essentially chasing this 24-year-old down the river and I was laughing, it’s funny, was listening to the GoPro, I was laughing, I was having so much fun, and it was really good for me to get out of my comfort zone in that way and reconnect with that joy. I don’t wanna do that all the time, okay, but it was really, it’s really cool that I’ve kept up the skills to be able to do that and to have fun and to have good lines. And I’ve also allowed myself to…

Like I sized up my Creek boat this year because I want more volume. I want something that takes a bit care of me. And I don’t have an ego about like, what size boat I’m paddling or blah, blah, blah. It’s like, okay. I like to paddle play boats on these types of runs, half slice on this type of run. And I want a big Creek boat for these types of run because it’s really fun and I feel more comfortable. So long winded answer.

Brad Burden
No, that’s all. I’ve had, and I’ve only been in a boat probably a dozen times in the past 15 years. But Pete Gallo that we’ve mentioned, it was a couple of years ago, probably like three years ago now, I’ve met you and Andrew for lunch and brought a kayak and went for a day on the Ko’i and we did a double. We did the upper and the lower and we got to Alien Falls, which is like maybe four feet high and something I would not even even think about 20 years ago and we got out and scouted it and like going like, cause we didn’t really remember where to go. and like getting out and look at that and like booth and just running class three, you know, easy class four whitewater and a Creek boat was just so much fun and just sparing and doing moves and catching eddies. And I was like, no, I don’t need to wave will through the entire Olympic course. I can just splash through here and catching Eddie. And this is a lot of fun. And that’s what, you know, I hope.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, that’s awesome.

Brad Burden
You know, lot of your clients and people watching this realizes like fun and adventure and challenge comes in so many different forms. You don’t have to be risking your life and you don’t have to be the best paddler or the best parent or the best coach or whatever the case may be. You know, I’m now this winter, I average probably 13 miles an hour on my bike rides. That’s not exactly very fast. so, but I’m like,

Who am I comparing that to? Did I have fun? Did I burn some calories? Then that was a win.

Anna Levesque
Yep. Yep. Totally. Exactly. I agree. So fun. when you, yeah, it’s like, what is fun? What jazz is you? You know? And keeping that in mind. I think that helps with longevity in any sport as well. Because when you take it too seriously, it becomes no fun.

Brad Burden
You know, your career has been, I mean, hall of fame. you know, you just recently, you know, like, do you ever step back and look and look at your legacy as in not, not from an ego standpoint, but like a good pride and like, wow, I’ve really left a major impact on the paddling community.

Anna Levesque
Hmm. You know, I… That’s an interesting question. There are…

Yeah, I do feel, I do take a step back and I feel, okay, let me see how to answer that question.

I don’t do that that often and I do…

What I really want to say is, yeah, I guess I don’t do it that often. And I do feel pride in my work and the relationships that I’ve built and when I see more women out on the water. And actually, you know, when something like my class four Creek Week has started maybe to see less early bookings, I take that as an affirmation that that’s great women are probably feeling more supported in class four, right? And I’ve had a really good run of 15 years with that program. And I think it’s actually a compliment to say like good work, you know? So now it can shift to something different. What I will say, it is sometimes I don’t know the impact. It’s hard to realize the impact especially because the wider industry, don’t know, like I don’t, sometimes I’m like, am I making an impact? Because the industry doesn’t necessarily recognize the type of work that I do. You know what I mean? I don’t know, that sounds so weird and people might be like, what the hell? But that’s, I’m just being vulnerable and honest.

Brad Burden
Well, yeah, like if you win the green race or you win the veil, you know, whatever, like it’s instant gratification if you win that, right? You got a medal put around your neck or you get a check. The impact that you’ve had, you know, it takes a while to see the residuals of that. And you’ve had as big of an impact on especially female whitewater kayaking as anybody I’ve ever seen in the last 30 years. So I’m just telling you that because we’re chatting on a podcast, but, As somebody who’s been out of the game and watching it just from afar social media wise, you should be really proud of what you’ve accomplished.

Anna Levesque
Thank you, I appreciate that. I really appreciate that Brad. Yeah, thank you. I was gonna say something else. Hold on, I had it. yeah, when you said that it takes time with the type of work that I do to see the impact. You know what I’ve really enjoyed in some of these podcast conversations and outside of this when I paddle with people like the 24-year-old Chilean, he was like, how long have you been paddling? And I said, 30 years. And he said, how old are you? And I said, 50. And he said, my gosh, you’ve been paddling more than half your life. That’s amazing. I hope that I get there.

And even I’ve had recently people in thirties, you know, be like, you’re still doing all this stuff. You know, I never was the person who paddled the hardest whitewater or one all the time. You know, I was at the top level, but you know, not, but, you know, and so, so like you said, there was not maybe a whole lot of always instant gratification. And something that I didn’t realize that would be perhaps part of my legacy is people are like, I want to be paddling at 52 like you are, like, what are you doing? Kind of like what you asked, what keeps you in the game? And I think this podcast, having these conversations, like being vulnerable and talking about discomfort and challenge in a different way than was especially typical when I was coming up in Whitewater. So I think looking back, actually think what I’m most proud of is changing the conversations around things, whether it was women in Whitewater or longevity in Whitewater and what that can look like, or how to face fear and challenge and discomfort.

Brad Burden
Yeah, that’s awesome.

Anna Levesque
Thanks for that question, Brad. I really, that really had me thinking and yeah, appreciate that.

Brad Burden
Absolutely.

Anna Levesque
Okay, are you ready for rapid fire?

Brad Burden
Let’s do it.

Anna Levesque
Okay. First question. What is a morning ritual that sets you up for success?

Brad Burden
This is gonna be a big disappointment, but it’s a diet coke and a hot shower, sorry.

Anna Levesque
Spoken like a truth southeasterner. Although you even though you grew up. That’s awesome. Okay. What’s what’s a non-negotiable self-care practice?

Brad Burden
Yes. Yeah. No yoga, cold plunges and that kind of stuff for me. I do stretch in the shower if that counts.

Brad Burden
Reading. Every night, yeah, I have to read every night to fall asleep.

Anna Levesque
Great. What’s a favorite inspirational or motivational book, talk or song?

Brad Burden
So like one of my favorite humans is a retired Admiral, Admiral McRaven. So definitely recommend people looking at him. And then he has a book called Sea Stories. That’s just incredible. And then he did a famous speech at one of the military academies called Make Your Bed. And he’s got a book about that too. It’s like, your day making your bed. And you’ve least accomplished one thing that day.

Anna Levesque
Yes, I’ve heard of that for sure. Cool. Thank you for sharing. What do people get wrong about you?

Brad Burden
that I’m arrogant.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Brad Burden
I’ve told that a lot, whether it’s in my kayaking career, coaching career. I don’t get it as much anymore that I’m in my mid-40s and completely whitehead. But that’s always what people used to say.

Anna Levesque
Cool. All right. Yeah, well, that’s interesting that you say that. you know, our conversation today is really focused on being more vulnerable and willing to be coachable, which is kind of, you know, not so arrogant, if that makes sense.

Brad Burden
Yeah, and it’s just perception, right? you know, whether you’re, whether it was kayaking and you wanted sponsors and you wanted to look cool. And now like coaching, like I wear, still wear a suit whenever I’m a head coach, like some of the college coaches and most high school coaches don’t like, what is he doing? Why does he think about him? And it’s really not about that. Now when I was 20 and kayaking, it probably was about that, but now it’s just about bringing a level of professionality to it and things. And it’s like, you can look good and not be arrogant.

Anna Levesque
Hahaha!

Sure, sure. You can be really good and not be arrogant. Yeah, yeah. Okay, throughout the course of your life, have you considered yourself the underdog or the favorite to win?

Brad Burden
or dress nice, whatever. Yes.

Brad Burden
Always the underdog.

Anna Levesque
Okay. Hard moves in easy water or flooding?

Brad Burden
Do the hard moves in easy water so you can flood.

And like we use that in practice too, like with our team, we’ll practice against six players so that the games are easier.

Anna Levesque
Right. Yep. Okay. What’s one word that describes your comfort zone?

Brad Burden
lazy.

Anna Levesque
Okay. Freedom through discipline or I do what I want.

Brad Burden
I wish I could do what I want, but it’s definitely freedom through dis-

Anna Levesque
In one word, what do hope your legacy will be?

Brad Burden
relationships.

Anna Levesque
Cool. Anything else you want to share with our listeners?

Brad Burden
No, thanks for having me. This was awesome.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, thank you. Thanks for being here, Brad. I appreciate your time.