My guest today, Anna Wagner, grew up on the South Fork of the American River in California, where she learned the love for rivers and mountains with her family. Her first job was as a film runner on the South Fork, but she soon progressed to photo kayaking on the Tuolumne and Cherry Creek, where she met her now husband. Motivated to paddle year round, they moved to the Columbia River Gorge in 2017. Since then, some of her biggest whitewater achievements include running Middle Kings, the Stikine and the Rio Baker. Before studying traumatic brain injuries as part of her degree in occupational therapy, she also had a fascination for the Pacific Northwest big waterfalls running Toketee, Outlet, Money Drop and Metlako. For Anna, the Gorge provides not only an incredible training ground for whitewater, but a sense of community and a strong group of female mentors. In 2020, Anna helped found the Columbia Gorge Junior Kayak Club.

In 2020, Anna helped found the Columbia Gorge Junior Kayak Club, a nonprofit organization that aims to get more local youth on the water. Members of the majority female board and club moms encouraged her to encourage her to pursue a doctorate when they recognized her passion for youth with special needs in the White Salmon School District.

In the future, Anna looks forward to suffer fests with friends in remote places and combining her love for the outdoors with her new career in occupational therapy. Thanks for being here, Anna. Really stoked.

Anna Wagner
Yeah, thanks for having me. It’s a pleasure and an honor.

Anna Levesque
I’m excited to dive into the discomfort zone with you. So when I say discomfort zone, what comes up for you?

Anna Wagner
Yeah, my first thought is the grocery store.

Anna Levesque
Hahaha!

Anna Wagner
But then my second thought is multi-step adventures with friends that are overwhelming in their entirety to conceptualize that challenges the brain and the body. And it’s appropriate because a lot of those trips start at the grocery store.

Anna Levesque
Mm, that’s so interesting. So say more about that, please.

Anna Wagner
So I think that an element that you need to have to succeed in big adventures and scary days is being able to give yourself the appropriate nutrition. And so learning like, what do you need to eat? What do you like to eat? What can you eat when you’re nervous? And those are so many questions to be having in a sensory overloading place like the grocery store when all you want to do is get in and get out.

Anna Levesque
So what are some, I love this, I love this actually, and I have something I wanna say in a little bit about eating on the river. And so what are some strategies that you use to focus in the grocery store in preparation to nourish yourself on a big adventure?

Anna Wagner
that’s a good question. I need a list. I have my phone with me and I have like a notes tab that’s a running grocery store list that Sam and I both pull from and we’ll add things on there and then we’ll check them off. And if I don’t have that, I just like wander around the grocery store like a lost puppy.

Anna Levesque
So do you see other places in life where you use your list as a mental agility tool?

Anna Wagner
yes, everything. I have to-do lists for every day and especially going back to school a couple years ago, I have a planner that has weekly lists, that has monthly lists and then daily lists. I love, like one of my first things to do in creating my list is writing, make to-do list just so that I can check it off.

Anna Levesque
That’s awesome. So you like to check stuff off. Yeah.

Anna Wagner
I, yes, when it comes to daily things, I have a lot of stuff going on in my brain. And so it’s a really nice way to unload them so I can make more space for my brain to think about other things.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, that’s a great way to put it. It’s like when I talk about the riverbanks as a container for the river that directs the flow, kind of like that’s what boundaries are or container, right? So without riverbanks, there would be no amazing river to paddle. Without boundaries in our lives, there is no freedom in what you just talked about that there’s too much stuff to like running around in your brain, running amok. It’s like, if the flow is just like going everywhere or nowhere and having that container of the to-do list is helping you to direct the flow of your attention, awareness, focus to help you accomplish. So there’s freedom within discipline, is freedom within boundaries, which is, yeah.

Anna Wagner
So much so, yeah, and I think I’m normally somebody who doesn’t like a schedule and who likes to do what I want when I want to do it. And I’ve definitely been in a transition phase of like thriving with a schedule.

Anna Levesque
How did you make that shift or what had you make the shift?

Anna Wagner
You know what? I think that,

It really stemmed from deciding to go back to school. I originally, graduated undergrad in 2010, or sorry, high school in 2010, undergrad in 2014, and I studied outdoor recreation and experiential education. And it was incredible, but that was a long time ago.

and since COVID happened, I came to a cross in the roads of like, how do I want to make money? And what else, how else do I want to bring purpose into my life other than experiencing amazing things with people that mean the world to me? and I was asking myself this and I was open to going back to school.

But I didn’t really know. I wanted to use my brain again, but like that’s so overwhelming and intimidating, especially for someone who studied recreation in undergrad, which I loved my degree so much. But with studying recreation comes also the jokes from friends like, oh, you just surfed all day, you know, which was also kind of true. And so like there’s a lot to that.

But so it’s really intimidating. And so I started to get advice from elder females in my life that saw a lot of potential in me. you should, and they started speaking about occupational therapy, one in particular. And she, and I learned more about what it was. And I was like, wow, that would actually be something that’s totally worth going back to school for.

But my gosh, I haven’t taken biology since my junior year of high school and I would need to retake stats and like the to-do list popped up and I was like, it is overwhelming to think about its entirety and I can’t think about its entirety, making that to-do list and chunking it into reasonable edible chunks. And so I started out going to the community college here in Columbia Gorge and then I also got a job at the high school in the special ed classroom. Completely changed my world and then I applied for grad school programs and then I got in and so with all of that like you really with going back to school and having a job and then also still being incredibly motivated and wanting to move the body and have these special experiences you really need to structure your day and life. It’s a total lifestyle change. Everything from there was one lecture that I had with for anatomy and physiology in one of my prereqs where I was asking my professor, how do you do it? Like, how do you do it all? How do you be social? How do you get your work done? How do you still go do the things that bring your life meaning outdoors? What do do?

And he could have been like, yeah, man, that’s a lot. I don’t know. But he gave me a really, that it’s so silly now, but I was drinking beer every single night. Not because I needed it, but because it was kind of just like culturally something that we do. We take a load off, we crack open a beer and we like unwind from the day. And he was like, only drink beer socially.

And that like one thing for me was a huge life. That was the catalyst of a huge lifestyle pivot where I told once you stop drinking beer every night, your brain works a lot faster. It’s a lot clearer. My body reflexes were a lot faster, a lot clearer. I was able to check off the to do list a lot faster. I was able to be more present with the people I was around. And so it’s like for me, that was one thing that was like a very contextual, tangible piece of advice that I could actually apply to my life that I still apply every single day.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, that’s great. Thanks for sharing. There was so much in that share, actually. So one thing I heard was, know, choose one thing. You chose one thing. I love that he gave you that one piece of advice. That’s like, how do do it all? I don’t drink. I only drink beer socially. That’s great. And what I heard that you didn’t say it specifically, but what I heard in all of that was that then you could habit stack on that one habit change that felt so good that you could then make other changes in your life. But it didn’t happen like all at once. Or I don’t know if it’s changes or you could start prioritizing, but you know, yeah, when I coach my clients, we go through that, pick one thing or two things that you really want to commit to. And then we can build on those things. And also when you’re talking about chunking,

It’s like running a rapid, right? You don’t look at the rapid or the river as like one big thing. It’s, yeah, I need to, can I do this move? Have I done moves like this before? Do I feel confident doing this move? Okay, then what’s the next move? And then the next and the next. Or I know you’ve run a lot of waterfalls, right? Like what’s the approach? The lip, can I spot my landing? All of that, it all is…

Anna Levesque
like smaller chunks, you know? So how you, yeah.

Anna Wagner
Yes, definitely. think if you don’t, if you’ve never done those smaller chunks before, then it’s really difficult to be able to see the bigger picture. And so the bigger picture equals all practice in all of those smaller chunks.

Anna Levesque
Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have to-do lists when you’re going? So I know you have your grocery to-do list and the to-do list I hear is it helps you like facing overwhelm or, and accomplishing the goals you want to accomplish. So if we take that to kayaking specifically, or I know you’re just recently in Alaska skiing, like you said, you love these big, bold adventures.

So how does that strategy, either the to-do list or the chunking, how does that fit into you being able, know, accomplishing or being present with getting to do these big adventures or your performance during these big adventures?

Anna Wagner
Okay, that’s actually a really good question. I think that I’ve always had, I’m a big dreamer and I’ve always had these big dreams of doing these complex multi-step adventures that are overwhelming to think about in its entirety. And one of those examples would be the Middle Kings. The first time that I did the Middle Kings, I trained

Anna Levesque
which for paddlers, you just want to tell a little bit about what the middle, for non-paddlers and maybe paddlers who haven’t heard of the Middle Kings before. I don’t know what that is.

Anna Wagner
So the Middle Kings is one of the high Sierra runs down in California where it is a 13 mile hike in over a 12,000 foot pass. And then you get to the put in and it’s about, people have now done it in a day. You can do it pretty, but a reasonable time to take your time down the river, especially when it’s like, it’s a huge physical and mental feat is five days on the river. So I’ve done it twice now. One time we did five days on the river and the other time we did four days on the river. And then pretty much you put on and you float through a meadow or you run some mank first or walk around the mank and then you float through a meadow and then at the end of that meadow, that’s the last flat water in five days.

And so the white water isn’t necessarily, there’s not necessarily one rapid that stands out as like, yes, that rapid is awesome, but it’s a puzzle piece. It’s a five days of a puzzle piece of like pretty dangerous and exposed whitewater. And then it culminates in the bottom nine, which is, so you start at this high Alpine Creek and then as you go down the valley, you come to confluences that add more water into the river and so by the end you’re running some pretty pushy class five boulder gardens with a loaded boat and you’re exhausted and you’re just ready to be home, you’re ready to eat some in and out. So yeah, especially if you love in and out. And so growing up in California, this was like end all be all for me. And it was also something I’m pretty bad at altitude.

Anna Levesque
Ha!

Anna Wagner
And so it was also, so there was the whitewater element, there’s the endurance of hiking your boat in element, and then there’s also the pass element of getting to 12,000 feet and being okay. And so in order to feel good about putting myself out there, I did several things leading up to going on that trip, but then I felt prepared and like I was in a place where I could succeed out there.

One of those things, the summer leading up to, or the season, I guess, leading up to running Middle Kings, did my first vertical mile on the Cispus River, which is in the Gifford Pinchot in our backyard. And it’s similar to the Little White. It’s like if the, Sam always says it’s like if the Little White and the Truss had a baby, where it’s like pretty comparable to both of them. It’s like the characteristic out here of just like, some mean rock, but like also some really powerful fun rapids. And I think that that vertical mile was like eight laps. And so that was a really good chance to not only get physically tired, but mentally tired and be put in a position of I’m mentally tired. My brain is, I can tell that I’m mentally tired when my brain gets more negative. So how do I handle that negative self-talk and what can I say to myself to get myself out of that negative self-talk space. And then also the physical exertion. Am I even strong enough to do this? So that was one of them. And then I also climbed my first volcano that year. And the volcano I climbed was Adams. I think the summit is around 11,000 feet. And so I was able to test myself in altitude and like a very a slog basically, which was in my brain preparing myself for the hike in.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. The one thing, so when you talk about, first of all, I think you’re amazing. And I have so much respect and admiration for folks who have done and do the multi-day trips out there. Big, you know, class five, big hikes in. It’s so much like hiking in with a full packed boat and then

Yeah, being on for that many days in a row. And thank you for sharing how you prepared because I think that sometimes it’s really easy to just see folks do that. And you think that, well, and I do know some folks that just get off the couch and do stuff like that for sure, but that’s not for everyone. And I think sometimes in a sport like whitewater kayaking at the top,

There can be the detriment of like comparing yourself to someone who can get off the couch and do that. And thinking like, well, if I can’t like get off the couch and just do this thing, then there’s something wrong with me or I shouldn’t be here. So I really love that you were very intentional and thoughtful about, I’m gonna prepare for this and test myself and give myself the best chance of success. I think that’s awesome.

Anna Wagner
Thanks. I also just want to say that I think that those people that can do stuff off the couch, they all came from somewhere. And so their baseline, like they worked at some point in their life, they worked really hard to establish a baseline, whether that was 20 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, but they have some sort of existing baseline already that they can pull back from. And so they’ve late, they at some point in their life, they’ve late a really strong foundation that doesn’t go away.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, that’s a great point too. That is a great point because when you’ve done the work and you’ve been in something long enough or you spent a ton of time at some point doing it, you do have that baseline. So that’s a really good point. And that’s something also to be stoked about for someone’s success, right? And in no way am I…

just to put it out there, no way am I saying that that’s a wrong way to do it. It’s awesome. What I’m saying is that knowing yourself and what you need to be successful out there is the key and not expecting it to look like someone else. Or like you said in the beginning, some people are stoked to go in there in a day and that’s the challenge and they get so stoked about those challenges of running these really challenging, hard,

complex rivers in a day, that’s their jam, but it might not be everyone’s jam. And it’s just as amazing to do it, if that’s your jam, to do it in like five days or four days. yeah, really like owning your own power and your own self-awareness, I think is important. The other thing you said in there that, okay, so I want to dive deeper into is that you were saying that when your brain gets tired, and I think this is a really,

important point. So when you get tired, your brain goes towards negativity and you start maybe having negative self-talk. Can you tell us like me, if you’re willing to share what that negative self-talk looks like for you and what you do in those moments to turn it around?

Anna Wagner
Yeah, that’s a really good question. I don’t think that my negative self-talk is any unlike anybody else’s. I think it’s very loud and I think it’s very negative where it says, it’s just like, it’s a voice on my shoulder where it says like, you’re gonna miss this. It’s often future focused. It’s not necessarily like my God, your line was so bad back there. It’s often future focused and it’s like, you’re going to mess up. You’re going to mess. You’re probably going to swim. You’re going to mess up and you’re going to swim and your go or like you’re going to hit that rock. Your angle is going to be off and you’re going to hit that rock. And so what I do. Yeah. So that’s it. Yeah. It’s often self-focused. I do or it’s like big themes of like you don’t belong here or that kind of stuff, But lately it’s been future focused about messing up in the future. And then that spirals me into fear, into like, now I’m afraid of that hole. I’m afraid of this next rapid. I don’t want to piton. I don’t want to hit that wall. I don’t want to go into that cave. And so then that affects my paddling. I get more timid. I get less strong. I get less aggressive. And so then how I handle it, is I have a mon… Okay, so I think that neuro… Okay, this is like a big theme about neuroplasticity, where when we put ourselves into these hard situations, we not only are growing in our body, but we’re growing in our brain, right? And neuroplasticity is like the real magic of our… Yes, our body is getting stronger, but our brain, it gives our brain the chance to build resiliency. And what that looks like is when…

you’re in a hard space and when you’re starting to get more negative, your brain is literally rebuilding neural pathways and you have the control to make those stronger in the positive direction or stronger in the negative direction. And it’s really easy to let those negative neural pathways take over. A lot of times it feels like you’re faking it when you’re telling yourself positive thoughts, but that is neuroplasticity in its finest where you’re telling your brain what to think and then it’s like a magic or it’s like a construction worker in your brain like paving a very new road. And so it’s gonna be hard, it’s gonna be painful, it’s not gonna feel natural, but you are literally telling yourself, no, I feel good. No, I’m strong. No, I belong here. No, I can make that move. And the more you tell yourself that, the more it will become true.

And that’s resiliency in the making. Then the more those neural pathways have already been created. And so then the next time you do something nerve wracking or hard or something that’s overwhelming to you, the more those neural pathways have been laid. And so then the more likely you are to actually feel strong there or to be okay with, I don’t feel strong here. I feel really weak, but that’s okay because I made it last time and I can make it again this time and you’re not alone in those times either. And so I think that that’s my soapbox of neuroplasticity. And then the things that help me in the moment is a motto. for, okay, so I’m sorry, I’m like talking a lot. But for example, this last season, I was out on the Little White running at a level that’s a little bit higher for me. So I was nervous and I was anticipating this one particular move in the first rapid because it gets more boilie and more seamy and more difficult. It becomes more cruxie. And so, and I’ve had, I’ve never really been able to run that section like super smooth. I always get through, but I always feel like I’m bracing my way through it. And so in that moment, I heard a voice say, you’re a mean girl. You got this.

And I think, and I had to laugh and I was like, where did that come from? But that’s exactly what I needed to hear. I can be a mean girl and I do got this. And so I think that that’s a good example of your brain can either be your biggest weapon or your biggest ally. If you do these challenges with intention, your brain can be your best friend and your biggest ally, but it takes patience with yourself. takes re-exposure and it takes practice and it’s gonna feel clunky and it’s not gonna work all the time, but yeah.

Anna Levesque
Well said, thank you for sharing that. Love it. Yep. It is so important. I I talk about this with my clients all the time. And know something that I’ve been playing with also, very recently, actually, I just recently read this guy, Dr. Joe Dispenza’s book, Becoming Supernatural, and I got really into it. And I did an online course he was offering, like, couple of weeks ago, and he talks about feeling, not only telling yourself, so he talks a lot about the heart as well and feelings, and I’ve been practicing this and it really works for me. And I’ve been coaching my clients on it too, seeing how it works for other folks. before, if I’m getting on the river, for example,

I will bring up the feelings that I want to feel at the end of the run. And I’ll really spend some time with them. So if it’s like gratitude or like stoke or like self-love for like doing awesome, having an awesome line or like big gratitude, cause I’m paddling with like great people, all the things, but I spend, I actually spend time, like, you know, a few minutes bringing those feelings up and holding them in my heart.

And I have practiced with this because when I’m teaching yoga in my programs, I always end my yoga class with hold a thought of gratitude in your heart for something, someone that you’re grateful for, and curl your lips up into a little smile. And then hold a thought of gratitude for something about yourself that you are grateful for, something that you’re proud of, and curl your lips up into a little smile. And it really like, the feeling is so wonderful.

Right? And that is also, the feelings are also sending signals to the brain, right? Cause that mind body connection goes both ways. And so I have been focusing on that. just the other day I paddled the Cascades of the Nanthala, which is super fun. And for me at this point in my career, that, I get nervous. It’s like class four plus, super fun. And, you know, I did that at the put in and it really worked and I just kept bringing up like if I would get nervous bringing up those feelings that I want to feel and then what also works for me is instead of like telling myself, no, you got this, no, you got this. I just focus on what I need to do and so actually I have GoPro footage from my run on Big Kahuna and I’m just talking to myself like get left, get left, get left. Like, so I’m just repeating to myself what to do, which is hilarious. that, yeah, because then there’s no negativity that can come in because I’m so focused on what I need to do. So these are things that more recently have been, feel less like faking it. So I don’t know. Yeah, so just different.

Anna Wagner
Yeah, and that helps stay in the moment.

I like that. And those are yeah. So I really love the more that I learned about how the brain works and the different parts of the brain and then also different movement exercises, the more I learned that yoga is like very evidence based and it’s like pretty amazing how we do a lot of these things in a yoga practice that then neuroscience is like, no, actually, here’s the reason why. And I think that, the hippocampus and the amygdala in your brain, the hippocampus is memory. And especially when it comes to sense and feelings and emotions, like that’s how it works the most powerfully. And then the amygdala is close to that area, but the amygdala is like your fear center. And so I just think that that’s like super evidence-based and powerful because that’s how the brain works. When you’re able to pair something with an emotion, when you’re able to pair a memory or an intention with an emotion or a scent, it will likely stay in your brain and you’ll be able to pull from it for the next time.

Anna Levesque
Mm.

Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for that. Yeah. I love evidence-based. Me too. I’m all about neuroscience and also neuroscience and how it’s affirming meditation, yoga, Ayurveda, all the things. So yeah, which is my jam. So I also love that you heard a voice just coming back because I got excited launching into my story, but coming back to your mean girl. I love that that you

Anna Wagner
Yeah, it’s awesome.

Love it.

Anna Levesque
had like that voice came out of you said nowhere. Can you just say more? do you really, you know, what is your take on that? Like you ran with it, which is so great. Was it your subconscious since you’re studying the brain? Like, I don’t know. Do you have a take on maybe what that was? Maybe it was like all that preparation coming to the, that you’ve done, like showing up at the right moment for you. I don’t know.

Anna Wagner
Right, I think that that’s totally what it is. And I think that that’s an example of I’ve been putting in the hard work of working hard on my fitness, going to the gym, and then doing these things in the outdoors that puts me in this exposed and uncomfortable situation. But then coming home feeling really accomplished and even more connected to the sense of place and the people that I did that I did this physical feat with or whatever. And all of those times are really good practice for the brain and for training the brain on what to think, how to think through making decisions and all of these things, and then how to give myself what I need in the moment. And so I think that that was a really good example of how when I needed it most, I was able to show up for myself.

Anna Levesque
Love it. That’s really powerful. Really powerful and all the work along the way, you know, to set yourself up. Like it’s not a magic thing. It’s not a magic thing. Like we can’t keep wishing and hoping that we’ll get more confident or that we’ll be more courageous, you know, without actually taking action towards that. And sometimes it feels like we’re not getting anywhere. I mean,

I was just telling someone, yes, I was like, feel like in my, I’ve gone through different parts of my life where I’ve been more scared or more burnt out. mean, back in the day, you actually interned for Girls at Play, back in the day. And when you came here and worked with me, I was pretty burnt out and I was in a more of a like scared, you know, phase of life in terms of kayaking.

And then it shifted, but always keeping, like always doing the work, these other things of like, just cause I wasn’t maybe kayaking as much, I was still practicing, challenging myself, but it looked different. And then now in my fifties, I’m actually same, like I started going back to the gym and lifting weights, cause it’s really important for this phase of life for me. And I’m actually feeling much more confident and

you know, I’m teaching a lot of mental agility and it’s really showing up for me in really powerful ways, which is cool. And so it’s not just for listeners out there. It’s not just something you do in your twenties or thirties, or sometimes you’re going to go through phases where it doesn’t feel like it’s working. Or maybe you need to take a step. I’m not going to say step back, but a step to the side and do something different and then come back. And there’s just a lot of phase now that I’m, you know, in my fifties, I can like look back and I know there’s much more to come, hopefully. And that, I can look back and be like, yeah, it’s, it, goes in waves and phases for sure.

Yeah, so it’s important to keep doing that work, I think, and staying present with yourself and continuing to get clear on what you want in life, which I think you’ve been a really great role model for that, Anna. I think you kept following your passions and following what’s important to you, whether it was kayaking and then going back to school and still doing these trips.

When I saw that you were down in Chile, Southern, in Patagonia, I was like, cool, look at her. And then you’re in Alaska. I’m like, check her out. She’s like going to school, doing all this stuff and still getting out and adventuring. Yeah.

Anna Wagner
Yeah, it’s been a difficult time, but also a really amazing time. And I think that being on the school schedule does help you. It’s advantageous for some reasons, and then other seasons, it’s really, really hard. But yeah, this time of the year has been really special for Sam and I both. Sam had pretty big surgery this fall. so, and then I’ve been finishing my capstone project. And so I’ve been able to be fully remote in time in these last couple of months. And so it really feels like we have been able to enjoy the fruits of our labor that we’ve been like really laying down lately. And then also it feels like life has been giving us some extra bonuses that we haven’t really been able to experience the last couple of years. So it’s been really nice. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
That’s awesome.

Anna Levesque
So, okay. So where do you feel discomfort in your body? Like when you’re in your discomfort zone, where do you feel that?

Anna Wagner
Yes, okay, so I think that this is a really fun question and gets my OT brain going because and it’s interesting for me to differentiate fatigue brain and discomfort in the brain versus discomfort in the body. And so we talked a lot about positive self-talk and discomfort in the brain and like trying to re-structure those neuro pathways and I really loved your like spin on that. I think that that’s a really good reminder where you don’t have to force anything, but we do have these tools that the brain really likes to pair with and it’s like actually a lot more effective in making change for your thought processes. like I, yes, I really like the brain and I like thinking about the brain.

But then the difference between how can you tell your brain is tired versus discomfort in your body and when you’re pushing yourself to your peak in your body and the thing that tells me that I’m doing that when I’m Scouting a rapid that makes me nervous and I feel tingles in my hands. I’ll like I’ll even start to like move my fingers and like really be tactile with my fingers, like feeling the tingles in my hands, and that’s actually your blood flow. And it’s like preparing your body to do something and to rise to the occasion. And so when I don’t feel that, I know that I take that as a sign of like, okay, maybe I’m not feeling this rapid this day, or if I ran this rapid, I wouldn’t be fully checked in. And so for me, that’s a good way that my body is telling me like, you’re ready for this time to go into battle kind of like because your sympathetic nervous system is like starting to engage. So I think that’s really fascinating and cool to think about because we do have these tools in our body and brain are communicating with us and we just have to know how to interpret the signals that they’re giving us.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, I love that. I’m so glad you brought that up. And in order to learn how to interpret those signals, we have to grow self-awareness. We have to start paying attention to the signals of our bodies. And so that takes trial and error, know, like tuning in and noticing. like, was there a particular moment or experience when you like, realized that or did you like, is it over time and you notice like, every time I crash, there’s no tingling in my fingertips. Like how did, or every time I have a sweet line, there’s always these, the tingling in my fingertips. So like, what was your process for growing your self-awareness around that?

Anna Wagner
Yeah, that’s a, I think you’re right. think it’s trial and error and it’s self-reflection of like the process of how to prepare yourself to perform or the process of really, yeah, stepping up to a hard day on the river or to something that you’re nervous for. It takes a lot of energy to fully be present. And so, yeah, there’s been times where I’ve learned from my mistakes of like,

Okay, I just ran that rapid because everybody else was doing it. And I didn’t have, it wasn’t fun for me. Like I made it down maybe, or maybe that’s when I swam or something. I have had situations where I have like been, I’ve been coming off of a really big thing or maybe my brain isn’t present. Like I’ve been studying for a really big test and then I tried to put on the little white at a high flow for me and I decided to walk off of the river before even getting to the rapids because I was like, you know what? I’m thinking about the questions on the exam right now, not about the moves on the little way. But that also takes practice for me to have that awareness of like, I know what it feels like to be present and to like have the energy and focus to feel the tingles in my fingers versus not. And I’m not there right now.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. Right on. Thanks for sharing that. That’s great information and something that listeners can really take away and start practicing, start paying attention. It’s just cool.

Anna Wagner
Yeah, good stuff to, I think that like self, learning about yourself is really hard and humbling and also really fun because we’re stuck with ourselves forever.

Anna Levesque
We are, yes. Self-awareness is the most powerful thing that you can develop because once you have self-awareness, you have choice. Once you have awareness, then you have choice. You’re not just stuck in an old habit pattern story that you feel is just, well, that’s the way it is. You know what I mean? I think that…

taking the time, dedicating the time and energy to growing self-awareness is really powerful and builds confidence. So, yeah, very cool. Okay, do you have a question for me?

Anna Wagner
Yeah, definitely.

Yes, I do. I’m curious when was a recent time that you got to practice mental agility.

Anna Levesque
Well, I actually practice mental agility every day because just as I just said with the building self-awareness. So I have old habit patterns just like everyone else on the planet. And I can really, use mental agility. Like I remember recently I started going down into a negative spiral in my head because I was working on a project and I don’t know, you know, whatever thoughts come in like this.

this is never going to work or will this really matter or I don’t know if I can get it done, blah, blah, blah. And, or comparing myself to others. And so I literally noticed and my sister gave me these really beautiful like window hangings that are, that are like crystal. I don’t know. The sunlight comes through. And so I literally looked around and was like, okay, let’s focus on something different. So I just,

stared at that and took in the beauty and like was like, you know, grateful. And just that then allowed me to refocus my brain. So it’s like I interrupted the negative spiral, right? Simply by looking at something that was right in front of me, that’s why it’s important to curate our environment to where there are things around us that we can focus on that bring us joy, whether it’s a plant or I have a window.

I look outside at the trees, the sunlight, or you have a piece of artwork or your vision board or whatever it is that is in your environment that helps you interrupt that negative cycle. when I notice, so I do that often throughout my day. And on the river, recently I ran the Cascades of the Nantahala, which is class four plus.

Super fun. I’ve been running it for years, but it’s not, it’s like, um, I haven’t been running it like all the time. And so I don’t know, it makes me nervous when I go over there and it’s good because like, if I just worked with folks on Creek week and you know, at the beginning of April, it’s really important for me to walk my talk. So it’s really important for me to run stuff that is still challenging for me. You know, like I used to run class five now that’s not my jam anymore.

And I still want to be someone who paddles class four, class four plus. And so I, you know, it’s funny cause I, I, as I mentioned earlier in the conversation of feeling the feelings before, like feeling the feelings of how you want to feel. So I really did that at Cascades. I sat there at the top and I was nervous. And of course, you know, I’m like, this is well within your skill level, you know, but I sat there and it like, at the end of the day, how do I want to feel? And so just spent some time and focusing on that in my heart space. I wanted to feel stoked. I wanted to feel like elated and joyful and grateful. And that, I don’t know, that’s really working for me right now. And man, I had great lines. The whole, like I had great lines. It’s a really short run, but I had great lines. I was so stoked. Yeah. And that’s such a good feeling. And so that was…

another time on the river. And then, okay, one more. During Creek Week, this is Creek Week is an advanced week, we put on the French Broad Section 9, because everything was really high and that Section 9 is a class three, four run, strong boaters. And we put on and it was like 5,000 CFS and then it was 6,000. And it was going great. Like we were doing

We were doing drills and everyone was great. And we got down to the two kind of crux rapids and we scouted, we got out and looked. So everyone chose, you know, saw their line and, you know, it could have been that I maybe should have been like, everyone were going right because right is easy. Like you can see, but I like to empower people. So was like, you know, shoot, you know, do your thing. You’re seeing it.

There might be a boof down there, but I’m not sure there’s some big holes. I took two folks and then two folks are with my co-instructor. One woman paddled into a, she caught an eddy, which is awesome. it’s just brought her right into a hole. And she flipped and she went for her role. She took a swim. And then the other woman, who is really familiar with the French Broad, she was on it. She’s like, I’m going to rescue her boat. And by this time, the river is probably more like 8,000 or 9,000 CFS, so it’s big. And so she went for it and like there was just a big hole. And so she swam. So then I was with two people. First person had already gotten onto a rock. I got the second person to shore. So the people were good. I knew that they were good.

And then I chased the boats and I was chasing the boats. I got one to shore and I pushed it up on shore and I could still see the other one downstream. I was like, I’ve got to get these boats. So I paddled many rapids down, got the other boat. I was so proud. was like stoked, pulled that boat up, emptied it and look up and the other boat is coming down like the rapids. So then I was like, all right, you can do this.

Anna Wagner
No!

Anna Levesque
And I even like jumped in my boat, no back band, because I was like, I don’t have time. So, you know, when people are like, you have to practice boating without all the outfitting. It’s so true because you never know. And so then, then several rapids downstream, I got finally got the other boat to shore. Yeah, I’m a professional. But I’m just saying, so like, you know, some people might listen to this and be like, well, you shouldn’t have put on blah, blah, blah. Yes.

Anna Wagner
my gosh.

Yes you are! Yes you are!

Anna Levesque
This is the deal. We all make choices. And then like none of us are perfect. And so, but it took me 20 minutes total to get both boats to shore. Like by the time I got one. And so the whole time I was just like, this is what’s happening. Like I am getting these boats. The people are safe. You know, like my co-instructor was up there. And yeah. So sometimes like in kayaking, you know, some people,

Anna Wagner
Wow. Wow.

Anna Wagner
Yep.

Anna Levesque
have this idea of me that I’m like, soft. I’ve heard this in the past, like, Anna, she’s soft or something, but that’s not at all how I am. It’s like, sometimes in kayaking, you do have to be like, this is what’s happening. And I’ve got to ride, I’ve got to ride, that’s right, I am a mean girl. I’ve got to rise to the occasion right here, because it’s just me and these boats. And like, if I don’t get them, they’re going, you know, way past the takeout.

Anna Wagner
haha

Anna Wagner
You’re a mean girl.

Anna Wagner
Yeah.

Anna Wagner
We’re never going to see it again. Yeah. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
And I’m really grateful for that mental fortitude of like, here we go. And so anyways, that was another time. And then it was good to also have a debrief with clients and be like, hey, this is what happened. These are the choices made. And one of them felt terrible for swimming. And I was like, look, it is, you went for the other boat.

That was amazing and it doesn’t always work out. So then being in that, using my own mental agility and then also coaching others through it too and being able to be a role model, be authentic with that, I think is really important.

Anna Wagner
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which I can, um, like, speak to that you do incredibly well. like, I can, I am only experiencing right now flashbacks from when I was interning with you when I was, like, 21 or something, where I think that…

Like you’ve mentioned that that was a really hard time in your life for you. But I also look back on that time. And there are several things that I am thankful that you are still my friend. Like I am not proud at all of like, I think I was still like building so many. was still built that time of life is like so wild where you’re still building your identity, who you are, the skills, the exposure.

Anna Wagner
And so there were several things that happened on our Creek Week and then in Costa Rica, where I was fully experiencing this like overwhelm of like, what do we do? Wait, we’re doing what? And you were like, yes, and you got to respond, and we’re responding and we’re going with it. And then we can talk about it later. And so I can fully back your decision-making and your like strength, but then also love.

Anna Wagner
afterwards and then your ability to walk these women through processing is like a really amazing skill and like innate gifts that you have that like your clients one million percent believe in and love and have guided them through some of the hardest times in their whole lives.

Anna Levesque
Thanks, Anna. That’s funny. yeah, for sure. It couldn’t have been that bad because I don’t like nothing comes to mind where I’m like, God, I can remember when Anna did this thing or like we were… No, what I remember was I was so grateful for your energy because it was such a… And that’s why I like working actually with…

Anna Wagner
Yeah, thank you.

Anna Wagner
God. That’s good, because right now I can think of at least 10.

Anna Levesque
Maddie, who’s a co-instructor I work with a lot right now, she is fun, vibrant, energetic, same thing with you, which is a good compliment to my more grounded seriousness. Not that I don’t like to have fun, but yeah. So, awesome.

Anna Levesque
And when I was at Cascades the other day, I just pushed people in Creek Week a couple of weeks ago, which is my class three, four week for women. And I’m challenging them and they’re really nervous and scared. And I’m having them go through the mental agility exercises and I’m not scared for myself because I’m comfortable on that water.

You know, I get nervous for the group and risk management. So then it’s really important that I walk my talk and then turn around and make sure that I am challenging myself on difficult rivers because otherwise I don’t feel like I would have integrity in my practice to be pushing people by pushing, mean, because they are there to be pushed, challenging people and then for me to just stay in my comfort zone.

So then it’s an opportunity to practice what I teach.

Anna Wagner
Yeah, and then have them see that too. You’re like, they’re really seeing you’re modeling the behavior. So they are like taking notes on how you do it, what it looks like in the context. And that’s like huge learning.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s one of the most important characteristics of a leader is are you modeling in your own life what you’re asking others to do or what you’re teaching or saying or how you’re leading? Are you modeling that for yourself, for others? Do you have integrity with that? And of course we’re all human. So yeah, we make mistakes and sometimes we don’t and that’s okay the key is to not then just give up. It’s to come back to what’s important to you and that role modeling.

Anna Wagner
I love it.

Anna Levesque
Okay, ready for… What is the word? Rapid fire.

Anna Wagner
So ready.

Anna Levesque
Okay, that’s good because I’m not, hold on. I thought I had it pulled up, but I don’t. And I asked them every episode, you’d think that I would know. Okay, what is a morning ritual that sets you up for success?

Anna Wagner
going to the gym. Though I don’t do it every day, but when I do, it’s a very good day.

Anna Levesque
Okay, what’s a non-negotiable self-care practice?

Anna Wagner
sauna.

Anna Levesque
Mm. Yes. What’s a favorite motivational book, talk or song?

Anna Wagner
Okay, so there’s a TED Talk called How to Make Stress Your Friend by Kate McGonigal maybe? Like totally morphed how I view stress and I really recommend it. All of my recommendations right now have an OT undertone because I do not read recreationally at the moment. And so yes, I love that podcast. You should go give it a listen.

Anna Levesque
That’s awesome.

I have listened to it. It’s a great, it’s a great TED talk. Yeah, highly recommend. Okay, what do people get wrong about you?

Anna Wagner
that I’m a fast racer. I’m terribly slow.

Anna Levesque
We were just talking about this before we started recording. Okay, so I have a follow-up question for that. So I never was able to, in my own, when I competed, be like, okay with just paddle, like doing the competition for fun, probably because of my perfectionist streak. So…

Anna Wagner
Yes.

Anna Levesque
Tell us why, you think that you’re, well, you said your times were slow, but anyway, when you said you had so much fun at the Little White Race, you partner raced, so what has it be fun for you regardless of the outcome?

Anna Wagner
the outcome? Well, I think the only thing that I can add to this is that I have not figured it out. And I think that that is the human part of it. And if anything, it’s just good to talk about it because I don’t think in our community we do. And I think that everybody, maybe not everybody, but I heard at the award ceremony, both Yeah, I heard a lot of like, that’s my time. I’m such a bad kayaker. and so I think that that is, I think we’re all at

As much as I don’t want to admit that I’m a perfectionist as well, and I’m a total enthusiast, there is also a part of me that holds myself to this high standard. And somebody told me that night that happiness equals reality minus expectations. So if you have more expectations than reality, you’re going to be in the negative. But when you are trying really hard and you have these hopes and dreams, then it’s disappointing. And I think that that’s the hard part about competition, where there are a lot of positive takeaways from competition. it’s this, it puts you in this stress space. And so you have to figure out how to navigate being able to perform under pressure. For me, it’s figuring out how to navigate the pressure that others put on myself than mine, like that social pressure of like, hey, I had a good time out there. And then people coming up to me and being like, I thought that you were gonna do better than that. Like that part is harder for me. so this year I chose to team race with a good friend. we had, I think that the team race element is a really great way to keep it fun. But there, just have to say there is this element of like,

It’s a confidence rocker for sure. And I think that it, think nobody’s immune to it. Cause I, cause inevitably I think, wow, I got a slow time. I’m not a very good kayaker. Like I thought I was better than that kind of thing. And I think that again, it is a chance for us to build resilience, build resiliency and get through it. But I continue to choose to participate. So I’m obviously not.

Every year comes around and I think I’m going to train harder for it and I never end up training hard for it. I end up hiking up Eagle Creek and running Met Loco again or like skiing a bunch or whatever. And so I think that there is another element of respect for those who are able to maintain laser focus on their goal and put the time in to be able to actually see those results on the river is really admirable.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, yeah. this, okay, so rapid fire’s going a little less rapid because I have one more follow up to that. Okay, so you said something about, and now I, okay, sorry, I lost it again. What was it that you were saying that you, oh, I I remember. Yeah, so, okay.

Just one more follow-up question from this rapid fire. So why do you keep putting yourself, why do you think you keep putting yourself in your discomfort zone and taking on challenges, whether it’s big expeditions or competition that is really hard for you? Like, what do you get out of it?

Anna Wagner
I think that’s where, for me, that’s where the, that’s where the spark of life is. I really love putting a lot of preparation into something and I really love, even though I said that I hate going to the grocery store, I love going to the grocery store and being like, okay, this is what we’re gonna eat for the next week. As much candy as possible, let’s go, or whatever.

Anna Wagner
I think that it’s just like a really special thing to be able to enjoy places that other people don’t get to go with your best friends. It’s really special.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Okay, back to rapid fire. Throughout the course of your life, have you felt like the underdog or the favored to win?

Anna Wagner
This is funny. I think that I’m the favorite to win and then I never show the people what they want to see.

Anna Levesque
Okay. I think we could argue that one, but okay, got it. That’s awesome. Okay, hard moves in easy water or flooding?

Anna Wagner
I’m a total believer in hard moves and easy water, especially with the school brain. It’s something that I have capacity for every single day, though I do love some high water stuff as well.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. What’s one word that describes your comfort zone?

Anna Wagner
hot shower. Ice cream. Both.

Anna Levesque
Mmm. Ice cream in the hot shower.

Anna Levesque
Okay, freedom through discipline or I do what I want.

Anna Wagner
Yeah, I’m definitely in a transition phase where I am now freedom through discipline, though, yeah, I’ll just leave it at that.

Anna Levesque
Okay. Okay. In one word, what do you hope your legacy will be?

Anna Wagner
hot and smart.

Anna Levesque (
You’re well on your way. You’re well on your way. Is there anything else you want to tell our listeners or say to our listeners?

Anna Wagner
I don’t think so. think that this podcast is really awesome in that we’re talking about discomfort zone and there’s so much good that comes from putting yourself in hard places and it’s for everybody. It’s not for just some people. It’s for everybody and whether, I think that the things outdoor enthusiasts have this ability to learn things in outdoors and then translate them to the rest of their life. And so it’s like a really good way to build coping skills, to build resiliency, and to build relationships that last a lifetime.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, awesome. Thanks for being on Anna. It’s always so fun to just be around you. You have such great energy. It’s what I always appreciated about working with you as well on the waters. You just bring that stoke and joy and lots of energy. So thanks for being here. I appreciate you.

Anna Wagner
Yes, thank you so much. It was really fun.