Anna Levesque
My guest today, Melissa DeMarie, is a certified whitewater kayak coach, international guide, and founder of California Water Sports Collective, a paddle sports school offering instruction and adventure programs across the US, Chile, Norway, and Italy. Melissa combines technical expertise with a deep passion for empowering others through outdoor adventure. She also leads a nonprofit initiative, Riverbound.

focused on breaking down barriers to access and paddle sports, creating inclusive and supportive spaces on the water. A proud team paddler for Cookatat, Piranha, and Werner paddles, Melissa brings 20 years of experience, mentorship, and environmental stewardship to every river she shares. Thanks for being here, Melissa. I’m excited.

Melissa DeMarie
Thanks so much, Anna. It’s awesome to be here. Excited to be on your podcast.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Woo. So, okay. When I say discomfort zone, what comes up for you?

Melissa DeMarie
Ooh, oops, the ums.

Anna Levesque
It’s okay. can, my editor can edit some of that out too. Yay.

Melissa DeMarie
Great, I’m gonna do my best. Well, Anna, when you say discomfort zone, that means a lot for me. It means being in a space that isn’t, you know, it could be in my, could be something in my wheelhouse that’s maybe an extension of something I’m already doing. It could be something new. It could be something.

Just trying to take myself to another level, whether it’s personally, business-wise, paddling, and just getting into that space where things just feel uncomfortable.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, yeah, I hear you. What is your strategy for when things get uncomfortable?

Melissa DeMarie
So what I have done over the last few years, again, working in this industry for 20 years, I’ve learned a lot and I’ve made a lot of mistakes along the way.

Anna Levesque
Yeah haven’t we all?

Melissa DeMarie
I feel like through all those mistakes and getting myself into these zones where things do feel uncomfortable has allowed me to really finish something and evaluate what happened and what I can do to move forward in the future. And whether that’s a skill, a straight paddling technique, whether it’s starting a business, whether it’s opening a nonprofit.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Melissa DeMarie
or whether it’s standing on the side of the river trying to decide if I’m gonna run a rapid or not. I now have a set of tools. I have a mental flow chart that I use for everything. I developed it for paddling specifically and turns out it’s something that I can use on a day-to-day basis when I’m moving into a zone that is uncomfortable for me.

Anna Levesque
Mmm.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, right on. Can you share a little bit of what’s in your flowchart? Like what does it look like?

Melissa DeMarie
So the mental flowchart that I have for paddling that I have been able to translate to everything is the first thing I do is I look at something. look at, use the river as our example here. I look at a rapid and I find my line. And then from there, I try to name all of my strokes.

Okay, I’m going to have to take a boof here. This is going to be a draw. This is going to be this or that or the other thing. And I line it up and I name all the strokes that I would need to make in an ideal world to get down the rapid. So first part of my flow chart is I asked myself very honestly, do I have the technical skills to run this? And if the answer is no, well, the flow chart ends there. Okay. Now I have to go back and maybe work on some of these skills to run this.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
If the answer is yes, then I go into my recovery skills. Well, if I get offline and I end up in this hole, do I have the recovery skills to be able to manage that? Is my roll really solid? Can I surf out of that hole? If I get pushed to the left, am I going to be able to deal with what’s in front of me? If the answer is no, again, flowchart ends there. I’m going to need to work on this other set of skills.

If the answer is yes, then I can go into another important aspect was, which is what’s my team look like? You know, the best paddlers mess up lines, the best paddlers go for swims, the best paddlers get served in holes. And so I look at my team. Okay. If where, where do I fall in that team? Am I at the top? I may somewhere in the middle. Are they taking me down? And if I’m leading something and people are really dependent on me.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Melissa DeMarie
and maybe they don’t quite have the rescue skills to be able to manage a situation where I ended up in the hole, I couldn’t surf out and now I’m swimming and we’re in this canyon. If I feel like they don’t have the skills to be able to help me in that situation, not only do I put myself in danger, but now I’ve also compromised my whole team because they’re counting on me to move downstream. If I look at my, so if they, if I don’t feel good about my team,

Anna Levesque
Mmm.

Melissa DeMarie
flow chart ends there and I walk around the rapid. If the answer is yes, okay, I got the maneuvering skills, I got the recovery skills, I’m confident in my team, then I can go into things like, how have I been tattling this day? Am I hitting my lines? Am I taking hard eddies? Am I just on it? Am I feeling good about running something harder? Okay. If the answer is like, well, I’ve been kind of beatering today, you know?

Maybe I’m not just feeling great. Maybe I’m missing some lines. Maybe I haven’t just not paddling great. Then the flow chart ends there. Okay. This is not a time to do something harder. If the answer is yes, then that’s where it gets tricky because now I’m going into a zone where it’s now I’m just managing the butterflies.

Anna Levesque
Hmm.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Melissa DeMarie
And okay, I can talk myself through it. got the maneuvering skills. I got the recovery skills. I got a strong team. I’ve been paddling super well, but I’m standing there going, man. And that’s, and for me, that’s the part that really, where I get into that more sort of subjective feeling in that discomfort zone. Like, how am I going to manage this? How am I, how am I going to manage the fears here? How am I going to manage this, this discomfort?

Anna Levesque
Mm.

Melissa DeMarie
you know, am I feeling fired up to do this? And so I’ve been able to take this mental flow chart that I developed for paddling and apply it to everything else. Whether it’s in my business, whether it’s in the book that I’m writing, whether it’s in starting a nonprofit. And it’s really helped me in that discomfort zone to break things down in a more objective way, which helps me push through these feelings that could be

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Anna Levesque
sure.

Melissa DeMarie
in a more subjective realm.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, I love that. Thanks for sharing. That’s great. Yeah, really cool. When you get to the part where you’re managing butterflies, is there like a couple strategies, whether it’s like, I don’t know, breathing? I’m just curious, because that’s great, because you have a very strong system that brings you to a spot. then like the butterflies and the butterflies, I like to remind myself that

Melissa DeMarie
Thanks.

Anna Levesque
the butterflies are also my body revving up to do something that’s important to me. you know, we tend to think of butterfly, well, culturally, think a lot of it can, it’s been communicated to a certain extent that butterflies are maybe bad when butterflies could also be viewed as like, great, I’m revving up to do something exciting, something that’s important to me. So what’s your strategy with that?

Melissa DeMarie
Well, I’m pretty dedicated in my yoga practice. And so I can draw on a lot of things that I do in yoga, is a lot of it’s about breathing. And that is very easy for me because again, that’s going back to something that for me feels really concrete and more objective. I’m like, okay, I can breathe and I can slow my breathing down, which is going to slow my heart rate down. And it’s going to allow me to.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Right.

Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
breathe through it instead of just residing right here feeling tense because we all know that if we go into a rapid or we go on the river and we’re feeling tense, we’re not going to paddle as well. We’re not going to feel as flowy and sometimes we’re not going to be able to make those moves. And so that’s the first thing that I do is I go, just close my eyes for a moment, breathe, try to slow my heart rate down.

Anna Levesque
Sure.

Melissa DeMarie
And then the other thing that I remind myself is exactly what you said. Those butterflies are good. Those butterflies are what reminds me that this is something challenging. This is something, you know, potentially dangerous, you know, whatever we’re looking at. You know, there is, if we have those butterflies, oftentimes it’s because there is an element of risk in what we’re doing. And for me,

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Melissa DeMarie
taking that and I have a few different mantras and things that I tell myself when I’m feeling those butterflies. And instead of telling myself, okay, I have these butterflies, it’s because I’m really nervous. Because you get the butterflies when you’re excited and when you’re really nervous. So I just tell myself, you just have butterflies right now because you’re really excited. And sometimes I will say that to other people that we’re sitting in the eddy or at the scout or floating into something.

Anna Levesque
huh.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Right. Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
Oftentimes I’ll turn around and I’ll look at the person behind me and just have a big smile and say, are you really excited about this rapid two? And that often gets a smile back in response, which is helpful for me, because I like looking at people that are smiling when I’m nervous. And for me, just vocalizing that really helps to concrete it in my, in my psyche that, okay, you have butterflies. It’s because you’re really excited. You’ve gone through your mental flow chart.

Anna Levesque
Mm.

Anna Levesque
Mmm. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm

Anna Levesque
Mm.

Melissa DeMarie
This is where you should be. You’re completely capable of doing this. This is in your realm. You have the skills to do it. You have a great team and you have butterflies because you’re so excited right now because you’re going to have so much fun in this rapid. You’re going to get to the bottom. You’re going to fist pump. You’re going to high five your friends. You might shed a tear because it was really exciting. And, you know, for me, I find that the more that I can vocalize things.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
the more I can make myself believe it. Because words mean things. And by saying them out loud, and even in the morning when I’m setting my intentions for the day, I used to do it silently, and now I say it out loud. Okay, these are my intentions for the day, for the year, for the next 10 years. I get those words out there, and I find that that helps me a lot. My last thing that I do,

Anna Levesque
Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm. Mm.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
When I am ready to peel out, I get into my predator mentality. And I talk to my students a lot about predator versus prey mentality on the river. And I talk about, okay, in nature, prey. They have eyes on the sides of their heads. They’re reacting to their environment. They’re being reactive. Predators, eyes in the front of their heads.

Anna Levesque
Hahaha

Melissa DeMarie
They’re proactive. They’re chasing down their prize. They’re chasing down their target. And so with my students, I remind them that we are not in, we are in nature, but because we’re humans, we have a choice. We have a choice on whether we’re going to be prey or whether we’re going to be predators. And again, saying this out loud, I have my spirit, my inner spirit predator, which is a silverback gorilla and

Anna Levesque
Yeah, I’ve seen it come out actually.

Melissa DeMarie
And I like to make that sound in the Eddie or floating into something, you know, I’ll get, I’ll get a really strong stance and I’ll go. And I’ll do it and I’ll get that, you know, that really guttural sound, you know, being able to, you know, I had the privilege of seeing gorillas in the wild years ago on the border of Rwanda and Uganda. And when the silverback.

Anna Levesque
Right.

Anna Levesque
Hahaha

Anna Levesque
Mm.

Melissa DeMarie
turned and looked at us and did that, the fear, just the absolute visceral fear that that caused in my body was unparalleled. And it was after that day that I decided that was gonna be my inner spirit predator because nothing messes with the silverback. And so I do that, that’s the last thing I do. I splash some water in my face, I make that sound. And if anyone else, anyone’s out there that’s been on the river with me,

Anna Levesque
There.

Melissa DeMarie
You’ve probably seen me do it. And I get ready to charge. And I’ve been able to take all of these things and apply it to everything else in my life. And turns out it works.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, that’s great. I love it. I love how you’ve been really thoughtful and you have a process and a ritual that works for you. And I think that that’s really, really cool. You know, I think that, that it is, you know, so important to have those rituals that you do, you know, every time you’re on the water or getting ready to paddle something because they do make a difference. You’re training your brain, you’re, you know,

creating neural pathways in your brain. It’s really, really awesome. So thanks for sharing. Yeah. What have you learned about yourself through putting yourself in the discomfort zone over and over in business and in paddling and you know, all the, all the stuff you do.

Melissa DeMarie
Thanks.

Melissa DeMarie
The biggest, I think the biggest takeaways that I’ve learned by putting myself in the discomfort zone is learning that I am more capable than I oftentimes give myself credit for. Because it’s really easy to look at something and think, I have no business being here. What am I doing? I don’t, you know, and it would be

Anna Levesque
Mmm.

Anna Levesque
Hmm.

Melissa DeMarie
very easy to just say, yeah, no, this is really uncomfortable and we shouldn’t have to push ourselves this much. I shouldn’t do this to myself kind of going into that should and should not. putting myself in this discomfort zone again and again through the course of my life has taught me that I am a lot more capable than I think I am. And even in

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Melissa DeMarie
Situations where I’ve got, you know, I’ve been residing in the discomfort zone. I do something and I fail. I’ve had so many failures in my life. know, whether it’s swims on the river, know, poor business decision, a relationship that didn’t work out. I can go back and at least tell myself, all right, well, you tried.

Anna Levesque
Sure.

Melissa DeMarie
And it didn’t work out, you failed. You can go ahead and spend an afternoon binge watching something silly on Netflix. after that, and I, you know, and I allow myself to, to have that moment. Whereas in the past, I wouldn’t, I would just keep pushing forward and push and push and push. Where now I allow myself a little bit of space. I try to have a little bit more grace with it and give myself a time out knowing that, okay, tomorrow’s a new day.

Anna Levesque
Hahaha

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Melissa DeMarie
let’s go back, let’s revisit everything. Let’s go through the mental flow chart. You thought you had these certain technical skills. You didn’t. Or you didn’t recover well. And being able to go back to that initial flow chart and break it down helps me as well to not get as down on myself. Because that is a huge thing in the discomfort zone.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Sure.

Melissa DeMarie
being somewhere uncomfortable, doing something that you were afraid of, and then failing. That sucks. And, you know, and I think that…

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Melissa DeMarie
Staying in that space and getting into that spiral of like, see, I knew you shouldn’t have done it. That was hard. That was scary. And look what happened. And yeah, there’s always going to be an element of that. And that’s why now I just, give myself a little time out. Go ahead, lick your wounds, have a tea, sit on the couch with your kitties. And I give myself that little pity party for a time period because that’s okay.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
You know, it’s okay to try stuff and fail. And so, but you know, what are we going to do moving forward?

Anna Levesque
Absolutely, yeah.

Yeah, think, yeah, I love your pattern. I love that you were using your flow chart not only for in the moment preparation, but also as a reflection, kind of debrief tool for yourself. Because I think that’s how we learn, right? Is to debrief or reflect, building that self-reflection. And sometimes that can be challenging and scary or sucky.

But it’s important to be able to move forward. So interesting, because when I… Do you hear that feedback a little bit on your end? No? I don’t know what… Anyway, you mentioned having the…

Melissa DeMarie
I don’t.

Anna Levesque
what was it? when you, let’s say you failed and you say, I thought I had the technical skills and I didn’t. I think sometimes what came to mind when you were talking about your flow chart is also there are times, I’m sure I know I’ve experienced this and you’ve, I’m sure you’ve experienced this where you might not think that you have the skills, but you’re like, I’m just going to go for it. You know what I mean? And it works out. Sometimes it works out like,

It’s not like you want to do that all the time, but I think sometimes we under, like you said, we underestimate ourselves. And sometimes it’s like a good thing to be like, I don’t know if I totally have this worked out, but I’m going to go for it anyway. See what happens.

Melissa DeMarie
Yeah. And I think that there’s a lot of scenarios that we can do that, especially when we look at, look at the venue, you know, and we look at the risk and more importantly, the consequences. And so again, going back to the river is a really good example, looking at a feature, going to surf a feature, you know.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Melissa DeMarie
It might be really intimidating and scary and I might get out there and just window shade, but behind it’s a giant pool. You know, so what are the consequences of doing something that I’m not really sure that I know how to do, or I don’t really think I’m not a hundred percent that I have the technical skills to do it. But if I look at the consequences of, you know, making a mistake or utter and complete failure,

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Melissa DeMarie
You know, what is, you know, what are those consequences? And, you know, it’s, it’s a great, it’s a great space to, practice that. You know, I had one of my early, one of my first mentors in kayaking, he used to tell me that, fighting fear is a practice. And just like we practice our strokes, just like we practice yoga, just like we practice anything, fighting.

Anna Levesque
Mm.

Melissa DeMarie
Fighting those fears and managing those fears is also a practice. And so for me, going into things that are super challenging, but relatively low risk, you know, sometimes I like to see what, okay, what is the worst possible scenario in this situation? Okay. The worst possible scenario. Okay. I’m going to surf into this hole. What is the worst possible scenario? I swim. Okay. What are the consequences of that?

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
Well, I feel dumb in front of my friends. But nothing. I’m going to end up in a pool. I’m going to swim myself to shore. Somebody might help me. And I’m going to get back in my boat and try again. really figuring out what is the worst possible scenario and then following that through to the end and then working backwards. And so that’s helped me a lot in business as well. It’s okay. If I decide to make this

Anna Levesque
Right.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
new change or if I decide to step out in this, okay, what is the worst possible scenario? And can I manage that if there is utter and complete failure?

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Anna Levesque
Right, yeah. the, well, and like, you you could also reframe failure as a learning opportunity, but the first time we do anything is not gonna be our best time, our best thing. You know, like the first few episodes, I think they’re of this podcast, I was so nervous, you know? And then as I’ve done it more and more, now I think like we’re into 80s,

Melissa DeMarie
Mm-hmm.

Anna Levesque
80 some episodes or whatever, like I’m so much more comfortable. And I think remembering that as well, that the first time we do something, we may, you our skills in order to hone skills, you’ve got to do the thing. And at first, it’s sometimes, you know, you it feels clunky or whatnot. And I think the key is to not give up, you know, and and like you’re saying, like, reflect, reframe, like not, you know,

what’s the worst thing and looking at it in the big picture. love, I think there was like a meme I saw on social media. It has like a photo, it had a photo of like planet earth, you know, and it said something like the day before you do this thing and then the day after you do this thing. like, there’s no, not, there’s no change in the photo of like the planet. And it’s kind of like,

I think of that sometimes, you because we can make a big deal. So on the one hand, I do believe that we each make a difference and we do affect change. you know, we are important in our conversations. As you said, words are so important. Conversations are so important. And at the same time, if we’re, you know, holding ourselves back because we’re afraid of failure, I like to think of that big picture of like the earth. You know what I mean? It’s going to be OK.

So yeah, I love that. And coming back to words are important. I agree. And you know what I’ve been playing around with a lot lately is words and also feelings, like really bringing up the feeling. I’ve been really into this. And it’s been working with my students on it and obviously myself. And it’s been really cool to like, like with intentions to really.

feel like the feeling of what if that intention or goal or whatever were to like totally come to be if everything I wanted to accomplish I accomplished like what would that feel like it’s been a cool experiment I like it

Melissa DeMarie
I love exploring things and you know, the older I get and the more things I do and try and experiences I have, you know, I’ve really come to, to realize that, those feelings mean a lot and it’s really great to explore them and not just, you know, when I was younger and

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Mm.

Melissa DeMarie
a little bit more rambunctious and wild and if I had these feelings that just seemed too feelingy. had this, just no, it’s true. I had this instinct to just like bury it, you know? And especially, you know, being a woman and always with the boys and they’re not so great at feelings or at least talking about their feelings. And so…

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Mmm.

Melissa DeMarie
you know, and whether it was, you know, in my restaurant days when I was a chef and, you know, always being around male chefs and just trying to emulate what they did to, you know, being a new raft guide and working with a bunch of guys that, you know, manly men that never talked about anything. And for years and years and years, I just thought, okay, well, we just don’t do that.

Anna Levesque
Hmm.

Melissa DeMarie
And it wasn’t until I started to develop a much stronger female circle, and not just kayaking, mountain biking, business, things like that, realized that there is another way. And it’s not just okay, but it’s a really positive thing to be able to explore those feelings, good, bad, ugly, and other ways.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

yeah. I can remember when I put out my, the, my, the instructional DVD back in the day, like when DVDs are cool, girls at play. a long time ago now, girls at play. And I had a little segment on it’s okay to cry on the river. Like you would have thought I had, I had murdered someone, like the reaction that I got from some people in the industry, like it’s not okay to cry on the river. like, okay. To me, it’s just.

Melissa DeMarie
Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
I remember that.

Melissa DeMarie
Yup.

Anna Levesque
you know, water coming out of your eyes, like may as well get it over with and then you can move on. You know, like, so yeah, I, totally, I know like when that’s the paradigm, I think it has shifted though a ton and, and, and I’ve loved having a lot of dudes on my podcast who have been very vulnerable and open. It’s been great. But yeah, I can, yeah, it was like, you know, just even having that

response to that DVD, it does make you want to be like, all right, like, gosh, it’s like such a big deal. It is easy to be like, maybe I shouldn’t do all this and like, kind of like cancel culture today, you know? But I think it is so important to explore those feelings and stand up for like what you believe is right and what your experience is. I think it does make a difference to surround yourself with

good women. So yeah, I mean, we’ve been on the same page about that. So yeah, for sure. So.

Melissa DeMarie
Yeah. I mean, you know, and I think I’ve told you this before in full transparency, when I started Cali Collective, I was obsessively on your girls at play page. I rewatch videos and you know, you were such a, you were such a role model for me when I was getting this going. And I just, I know I’ve mentioned it to you before, but I just want to reiterate, you know,

Anna Levesque
that’s nice.

Melissa DeMarie
how inspiring that was and watching those things and seeing you do it and being like, yeah, we’re going to do it too.

Anna Levesque
Mmm.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, thanks Melissa. That’s awesome. And you have done it. My goodness. You’re just thriving out there in California. It’s just so well and all over the world. So cool to see all the trips and fun stuff and you just celebrated 10 year anniversary. Right? And yeah, very cool.

Melissa DeMarie
Yep. 10 years. had to count even this year. I kept counting going, is this right? Is my math off? Cause it can’t be 10 years. It’s been a road for sure. I think it was, you know, the, running the classes and the clinics and the trips, those skills are, were the things that I was really confident in. It was, it was the business side of things. And it wasn’t until I was into year three,

Anna Levesque
I know.

Anna Levesque
Right. Now that’s awesome. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Sure.

Melissa DeMarie
of Cali Collective when people were telling me, you might want to consider going all in. This is a thing. And I don’t know. I don’t know anything about business. finally, I just said, all right, let’s do it. And yeah, you know, and in the beginning, it was definitely throwing a lot of spaghetti at the wall and trying stuff and going, whoops, that didn’t work.

Anna Levesque
Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Right? You know what’s funny? I love that you use that metaphor because when I first started working with the business coach, she was like, you’re throwing too much spaghetti at the wall. She totally said that to me. She’s like, you have too many things going on. You need to like whittle it down to, you know, when I think about it now, it’s crazy. But she was like, you have like more than 12 programs. And it’s true. Like, what was I thinking? But I don’t know. I just had this mentality. It’s like,

All right, is this gonna work? Is this gonna work? Should I keep this? So yeah, I can relate to that for sure.

Melissa DeMarie
Yeah. You got to, you got to try and you know, one of the most fun things about, you know, Cali Collective and not just running the classes and the, and the trips and things, but the thing that I’ve really enjoyed was, is learning how to run a business and in figuring that stuff out. so the research and the coaching and, and, and for me, that is,

huge discomfort zone. still is. I still don’t feel like I don’t know what the heck I’m doing. You know, the thing that I’m really confident in is it’s a great product. I know for a fact when people get on the water with us, when they come on a trip, they come out of the country, you know, or they do a day class on the South Fork, I know that it’s a great product. I know that I have a super high quality coaching staff. I know that our gear is great. The venues are great. And if it’s

Anna Levesque
Yeah, I hear you.

Ram.

Melissa DeMarie
We got food and lodging. know it’s going to be great. So that helps get me through kind of going back to that mental flow chart and the discomfort zone. It’s like, okay, I have the technical skills to run this. I have the recovery skills. I can do this. And then when I’m looking at these pieces of running a business, understanding a budget, understanding insurance and permits and…

Anna Levesque
Right.

Thank much.

Melissa DeMarie
workers’ comp and all. mean, it’s a lot. And in California, it is not easy being a small business. The odds are stacked against you. And so every day it’s like, okay, I’m going to do this again.

Anna Levesque
Vehicles, yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm

Anna Levesque
Yeah, yeah, I hear you. It is a lot. It is a lot. What is something, what is your, like I’m curious, what is your, the biggest thing you’ve learned about business or, yeah, what is like,

What is something that you wish you had known about running a business that now you know that you would share with like maybe someone listening, for instance? Is there like one thing that comes to mind that you’re like, man, I wish I had known.

Melissa DeMarie
I think one of the biggest things that I’ve learned is that risk is okay. There’s gonna be an element of risk and that’s okay. And in understanding, going back to understanding, know, venue and consequence.

Anna Levesque
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
understanding that this is going to be a risk and you don’t have to be, for me personally, quite as conservative business-wise as I was. I think that I could have made better decisions early on, being a little bit more comfortable taking risks. I definitely held the reins in pretty tight, especially in the early years because

Anna Levesque
Mmm.

Anna Levesque
Mmm.

Melissa DeMarie
One, don’t come from money. Everything I have in my life, I’ve had to work super hard for. And so when it came time to really go in on starting a business, I think maybe taking out a loan in the beginning would have been okay. Maybe spending a little bit more money on this or that would have been okay instead of

Anna Levesque
Mmm.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Anna Levesque
huh.

Melissa DeMarie
holding the reins in so tight because I was afraid. I was essentially afraid of surfing out into the hole. I was like, well, what if? And it’s like, well, you figure it out. I think the thing that I wish I understood better in the beginning was budgeting. I’ve always been good on my personal budgeting because again, not coming from any…

Anna Levesque
Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Mmm, yeah, me too.

Melissa DeMarie
And then also to working seasonally on the river as a raft guide, safety kayaker, photo boater, you know, and working from season to season, I was always really good at budgeting, but I think what I thought was good at budgeting was more just like, okay, I’m going to hang on to everything as tight as I can, as long as I can, where in business, it’s not as smart to do that. Well, at least I felt for me, I think that being a little less

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Mmm.

brain.

Anna Levesque
Right.

Melissa DeMarie
conservative probably would have been a better tact for me. I mean, it’s great right now. I don’t have debt, but I think that I could have grown. were things that I could have done. I think the other thing that’s really important that I’ve learned was, I think probably the most important thing, I would put this above risk, is learning that I don’t have to do everything myself. There are things that people know how to do, like,

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yes. Yeah, I still struggle. Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
the website, you know, the first, you know, two websites I had, I built, they were fine. But, you know, the time that it took me to figure out how to do it, to do all the research and then do like an okay job at something, I could have paid someone, someone that knows how to do it. That would have saved me so much time on my end. I mean, it’s cool that I got to learn stuff, but

Anna Levesque
Right.

Anna Levesque
Right, right, yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
Now I’m so much better at hiring the right people in the right positions. So instead of feeling like, okay, exactly. And that, and that definitely goes back to investment and risk. You know, right now I, I have started hiring someone to do the weed whacking around my property because yes, I can do it myself, but is that a good use of my time?

Anna Levesque
Yeah, which still takes investment and risk, you know? Yeah, yeah.

Anna Levesque
Hahaha

Melissa DeMarie
And so now I’m a lot better at breaking everything down financially. And I look at, okay, what does it cost to hire someone per hour to we whack my property versus what is my hourly? Like what is my value? And if I look at it in a, which takes again, that subjectivity out of it. If I look at it from a pure financial standpoint, it does not make any sense for me.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm, right.

Melissa DeMarie
to do the weed whacking on my property because that’s taking away from the thing that I’m actually, I should be doing, which is my job. so, you know, turning that into something that’s way more objective and I can line it out, that helps me get through those things. so yeah, having an assistant, know, having someone in the office right now, this is the first year I’ve had someone full-time in the office. Holy crap. You know,

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, yeah, that’s great.

Mm-hmm.

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Melissa DeMarie
for a job that’s really trainable. They can answer the frequently asked questions, they can book clients, they can do all those things where now I’m freed up to do all my project work. And what I can actually do is grow my business, grow the nonprofit, get more into the 501c3 world, which is really where my passion and my strengths lie.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Melissa DeMarie
rather than getting derailed every single day plowing through on my to-do list, it’s called the email bonanza. I’ve gotten to take that off my list and now I have just so much more mental space and I feel a lot more free to be able to be creative because being a business owner is all about being creative, right? And being able to take a moment and explore, okay, what is this risk and what would this mean if I followed this through to the end without having that

Anna Levesque
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
I never would have been able to do that. I wish I had hired her so long ago.

Anna Levesque
Right, yeah, no, I hear you. I hear you. Thanks for sharing that. And you know what, the other thing I hear, I can relate with everything you said. And one thing that I heard in what you were saying about the risk is also that you, but part of it is like, of like, remember we were talking about like the first time you do something, it’s not your, you don’t know and you start growing skills is like,

trusting your skills to generate revenue. Like that’s the other side of the risk is that you grow your confidence in being able to generate revenue all the time, but especially when you need to. So anyway, that’s what I heard. It’s cool. It’s a cool skill. Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
In a perfect world, I follow this to the letter every time, but the reality of it is, sometimes I watch an extra three shows, because…

Anna Levesque
I hear you. Yeah, it’s, it’s always a journey. At least for me for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And it does take consistency and not giving up, you know, so yeah, and a passion for it, I think, you know, having fun, passion for it. Yeah, at some point.

Melissa DeMarie
Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s gotta be fun.

Anna Levesque
For sure. No, it does. Yes, it’s fun.

Melissa DeMarie
some point, cause sometimes…

Like when I’m missing kayaking trips because I’m working on my kayaking business, not fun. When people are texting like, hey, coming down for upper cherry. And I’m like, cool. And I send them a selfie of me sitting at my computer, not fun. But looking at the end game keeps me motivated.

Anna Levesque
Right? That happens.

Anna Levesque
I hear you. Yeah, there’s a give and a take. Although, you know, I have spent years where I’ve focused more on working and I’m trying to well right now. What’s not fun? For me is not being able to paddle due to my back healing. That’s really not fun. And. This year, last year.

Especially I’d really challenged myself to do more paddling for fun and that was that was great I’m gonna stay on that track as I come out of this Back stuff, so we’ll see but it is it can be easy to get wrapped up so

Melissa DeMarie
It’s a, you know, the reality of it is when you do your passion, when your passion is also your livelihood, it’s a slippery slope. And I’ve had long stints where I felt that.

Anna Levesque
Mmm.

Melissa DeMarie
I was losing sight of why exactly it was that I was doing what I was doing because I was so focused on the business. I was so focused on running this and focus on everybody else, focus on my students, focus on my staff, focus on all of these things in the office where I just wasn’t getting out enough. This was a few years ago and probably, what is it?

Anna Levesque
Right.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Melissa DeMarie
Probably about five years ago, I decided I needed a huge shift. And now I have actually scheduled into my weekly schedule is paddling for myself. whether that means, you know, just going out to the wave, whether it means, you know, just going and doing a slice lap or driving down Cherry Creek, it is part of my schedule.

Anna Levesque
Mm.

Anna Levesque
Yes, yeah, that’s great.

Mm-hmm.

Melissa DeMarie
It is part of my self care. is part of my wellness. is part of my health and wellbeing because it’s, it is, it’s, it can be a slippery slope and I never want to lose the joy in what I’m doing because you know, other than yourself losing it, your clients and students see that. And I think that a big reason that

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, totally.

Anna Levesque
Mmm.

Melissa DeMarie
our students and our clients come back over and over and over again is because they see their instructors out having fun. They ask us, especially the beginners, what do you guys do on your said something about a day off. What do you guys do on your day off? We’re going to go kayaking. And I had a guest coach a few years ago say, what’s really cool about Cali Collective and your coaching staff is that you’re all

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
relevant paddlers, you you’re all out there pushing yourselves and just continuing to get after it. And for me, that’s kind of an interesting thing because one, I’m doing it because I love it and I can keep that joy and that passion and that spark. But the other thing too, is that when I’m out, you know, pushing myself and challenging myself and residing in, you know, in that discomfort zone out on, you know, challenging sections of river.

Anna Levesque
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Melissa DeMarie
is that I can take those tools and that directly translates back to coaching. And so when I’m bringing someone on a class two section for their first time and they’re, or even just in flat water and they’re like, wow, okay, I to do the wet exit. This is so scary. I can think like, yeah, just on Wednesday I was on the river and I felt nervous, you know? And whether I…

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
know, relay that out loud, or at least it gives me a lot more empathy and understanding for the people that I’m working with. Like, yeah, I get it. I’m still doing it. You know, I’m still scared. You know, I had a student the other day who was so bummed that they swam, and I told her, go, I just swam in May.

Anna Levesque
Yep. Yeah. Absolutely. Yep.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
Actually, my other coach and I swam out of the same hole at the same time.

Anna Levesque
that’s awesome. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Relatable. That’s awesome. Melissa, do you have a question for me?

Melissa DeMarie
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
My, think, let me think about, I was thinking about this earlier in terms of like you sort of diversifying more. So let me think of how I wanna phrase that.

Anna Levesque
Mm. Sure.

Melissa DeMarie
Okay, so Anna, I have a question for you. Now we’re the same age, which is rad. We’re still both out there giving her, having fun on the river. But I also understand that, you know, right now a majority of my, you know, joy aside, but a majority of my income does still rely on me being an athlete. And

Anna Levesque
Yeah. Woo, women in their 50s. Woo, woo. Yep.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Melissa DeMarie
I’ve been in that situation before when I had to have a pretty extensive shoulder surgery and that was really tough. It was really tough because I realized I didn’t have anything else in place just in case things didn’t go well. And also too, had really my entire identity wound around me being a paddler. And when I felt like that was quote taken away from me, I really struggled. And so now,

Anna Levesque
Right.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Anna Levesque
Right.

Anna Levesque
Mmm.

Melissa DeMarie
10 years later, two good shoulders, feeling a lot stronger, a lot healthier. I’m still, you know, I still understand that I’m on the other side and that I can continue to be strong and I continue to get out and paddle challenging sections. I can continue to travel, but the reality of it is, is I’m still mortal. Don’t tell anyone. And so I’ve

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Melissa DeMarie
I’ve watched you, especially in the last few years, really diversify yourself and your offerings. And I was wondering, how did you start to make those steps in that sort of diversification of you and you as a professional, not just as Anna, the athlete and the coach, kayak coach?

Anna Levesque
Mmm.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, you know, I think, well, it started a while back and I think

I have always, not always, so I started getting interested, well, let me see.

I think I’ve always had diverse interests. For instance, like yourself, yoga. Yoga has been a big part of my life and routine. So that side of things has been just as important to me as kayaking. For example, you don’t necessarily see it because it’s part of my morning routine. You know what I mean? But in like, in all the teacher trainings and then Ayurveda came out of that becoming an Ayurvedic health coach. That was definitely passion, like super passionate. And throughout the years, like,

I’ve definitely chosen other things over kayaking for like certain times in my life, like stand-up paddleboarding. When I started getting into stand-up paddleboarding and I had these opportunities to go run SUP camps in Hawaii and on the coast of North Carolina and in Barbados, like, heck yeah, I’m going to do that. Heck yeah, I’m going to give up whitewater kayaking for a little while. You know, I didn’t give it up. I just was spending more time doing that. And I got introduced to SUP surfing.

And so I don’t, so like in my twenties and early and like early to mid thirties into like late thirties, was like kayaking was like it, kayaking. Like I started kayaking at 19 and that’s all I wanted to do and that’s all I did and I competed and you know, all the stuff, all the things. And then I don’t know, for some reason it was easy for me to like also follow other

Anna Levesque
passion. So it was not a strategic and this is true of my business too. It was never like this strategic thing. It was like, I’m going to follow my passion for kayaking. I can compete. my gosh. So cool. I noticed that women that it’s tough being a woman in this sport. I’m going to put out an instructional DVD because I want to put out the female experience. was not like ever a strategy like, maybe I can make money. In fact,

When I did do, I was like, ooh, if I do a recreational kayaking DVD for women, it’s going to reach so many more people. I bet I could make more money. Hilarious because it didn’t, it didn’t do better than my Whitewater DVDs, which cracks me up. And that taught me early on, like don’t do something for, I like money. Don’t get me wrong. I am very proud of having like the Prosperous, a business that works as you are, you know.

That’s an important aspect. And to do something just for like, I think it’ll make me a lot of money didn’t work for me. so following my passion and that’s what I’ve done. And so this diversification of like into one-on-one coaching, you know, based on like human, I’ve also done like human potential training and Ayurveda and yoga and.

To me, it’s not separate from kayaking. To me, it has kept me in the game of kayaking for as long as I have. And I’m very grateful that, yes, this is a huge injury that I’m healing. It’s the first huge injury. And I’ve been paddling for 30 years. I’ve got something to share with folks. And now I have even more coming soon after this back injury, coaching people on how to take care of their backs when you’re kayaking.

But I think it’s been not a strategy, but something I’ve always followed my passions. And thank goodness, like right now I’m so grateful that I have the MindBody Paddle community, that I have offline coaching video review. And I want to say that you, I can coach folks, you could coach folks. You do not have to be on the water with someone. I have seen my clients benefit so much from online coaching that supports their paddling.

Anna Levesque
and that supports their entire life. Like having routines and habits that help you perform makes a huge difference. So, and video review, you can do so much. So I’m very grateful that I’ve had it all. And I wish, you know, I could say, oh, it’s such a smart strategic plan, but it was not at all. follow your passion. think looking around though and, and, know, yeah. And 50s like,

Melissa DeMarie
You

Anna Levesque
Will I be doing this in my 70s? I don’t know. So it is good to be thinking about doing different things. And this podcast, same thing. It was a passion. It was like a calling. was like, I want to do this. I wish I would like to monetize it at some point. Right now it’s a marketing expense. I think of it that way in terms of like if you’re looking at budgeting business because it helps introduce people.

Melissa DeMarie
No,

Mm-hmm.

Anna Levesque
You know, this sounds very businessy. Some people are like, what do you think of this as marketing? It’s like, well, you’ve got to as a business, you know, you’ve got to be thinking about these things, even though this is very much a passion, this podcast. It also, you know, seeing how fits into my business is important because there is an expense of an editor and the software and, you know, all the things. So, yeah.

And I think that’s what’s interesting too, that folks don’t see all the backend stuff, which is great when you run a smooth operation, you know, they’re like, they make it look easy or it’s great. And there is like a lot that goes on behind the scenes. So yeah, long-winded answer to your question. No strategy, passion, kind of like you’re saying.

Melissa DeMarie
No, that’s great. That’s…

Anna Levesque
Throw spaghetti at the wall from the point of passion, see if I can stick it.

Melissa DeMarie
Yeah.

I mean, that’s how I feel. You know, this, so I’ve been running trips in Chile since 2016 with Cali Collective. And this year I decided that I was not actually going to promote the, it was not going to promote Chile too much. I last couple of years, I ran a lot of trips and it was awesome. but the thing that I really, the passion that I have is I love writing.

Anna Levesque
Mm.

Melissa DeMarie
And I started to write a book a couple of years ago and I’m not very far into it. And I really want to get it written. I want to get it to a point where I can take it to an editor. And I, one of the things I realized is that if I keep just going, just doing the trips, which is great because I love them and it’s also revenue and you know, in full transparency.

Anna Levesque
Mmm.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Right.

Yep. Yep.

Yeah, for sure, of course.

Melissa DeMarie
But I realized that there’s no way that I’m going to get this book written. And this is something that I’m really passionate about. And so I made a very conscious decision for the next few months. I finish, I finish up here on the American, pretty soon here, and then we’ll head down to Chile in the beginning of October. And I have months before my next client trip. don’t, I don’t, I don’t have clients until February.

Anna Levesque
right?

Melissa DeMarie
and I want to, I bought some land, which I’m really excited about, but I wanted to I wanted to just, yeah, it’s, you know, thinking about not having a strategy or a plan for that diversification, but focusing on something that I’m really passionate about. And writing is something I’m really passionate about. I just haven’t had the time to do it. And so I decided, you know what, I’m just gonna set this time aside. And I let a friend read,

Anna Levesque
Mm-hmm.

Anna Levesque
Yay, congrats.

Anna Levesque
Right.

Melissa DeMarie
chapter that I have written. have quite a bit done and 65 pages of journals transcribed. And she said, she goes, you you should, you might want to consider polishing this one up a bit, this one chapter and pitching it and trying to get in advance. And we talked about that for a while and an agent and all these things. And then I actually decided against that.

Anna Levesque
Nice. It’s great.

Anna Levesque
You

Anna Levesque
See you. See you. Stop it.

Melissa DeMarie
And not because I don’t want to put pressure on myself to get it finished, but I want to go at it at the pace that I want to go. And I feel like polishing one chapter, going through the whole process of finding an agent and pitching it and getting in the advance, almost in a way would detract from that initial passion. You know, maybe down the line, subsequent books. Yeah, okay. We have, you know, something to go on, but, you know, I’m giving myself

Anna Levesque
Hmm. Sure.

Melissa DeMarie
a schedule and a bit of a deadline to have it to a point where I feel good taking it to an editor or a publishing house. But I didn’t want to put that extra pressure on myself to go through this whole process first. And I just really want to, especially because this is the first new thing that I’m doing outside of, you know, whether it’s my kayaking business or the nonprofit.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Melissa DeMarie
And I just really want to enjoy this first process, treat it like a job, but also revel in the passion of it. So I get that. So I decided to not have a strategy, have a loose outline, and then just go from there.

Anna Levesque
Yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, that’s great. I look forward to it. Sweet. That’s awesome. Okay. Are you ready for rapid fire? I have a bit of a deadline today. But yeah, we’re good though. We’re good. This is like the last little thing. So, okay. Rapid fire. These are meant to be answered short answers. What’s a morning ritual that sets you up for success?

Melissa DeMarie
Yes. Yeah. wow. It’s already one.

Melissa DeMarie
Okay.

Melissa DeMarie
Every morning I get up and I have my same routine. I get up even before my eyes are really open. I throw my mat on the floor and I do my yoga practice. From there I have my tea and I read something for fun. Something that has absolutely nothing to do with work or business. And even if I have to launch straight into work right after that, whether it’s in the office or teaching, at least I’ve had a nice grounding, calm morning to start my day.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, nice. Okay, what’s a non-negotiable self-care practice?

Melissa DeMarie
My non-negotiable self-care practice is going paddling for myself once a week. Non-negotiable. That has to happen.

Anna Levesque
Mm, great, awesome. Okay, what’s a favorite motivational quote, book, talk, or song?

Melissa DeMarie
The most motivational talk that is actually quite recently, I got invited to a tribal relations workshop last week and listening to the tribal elders talk about the history of the tribes in Northern California and the atrocities and the horrible things that happened. On the flip side,

Anna Levesque
Mmm.

Anna Levesque
Mmm.

Melissa DeMarie
What they wanted to talk about most was resilience and hope and how we’re going to move forward. And that was so inspirational to me.

Anna Levesque
Love it. Okay, what do people get wrong about you?

Melissa DeMarie
I think people don’t know that I have social anxiety. People think I’m so always comfortable all the time out there where any of my friends are listening, they know me. They realize sometimes I have to sit outside the party and go, okay, just go in, just go in. So yeah, social anxiety, little known fact about me that now everyone knows.

Anna Levesque
Okay, it’s a good one.

Anna Levesque
That’s awesome.

Anna Levesque
you

Okay, okay. Okay, throughout the course of your life, have you considered yourself the underdog or the favorite to win?

Melissa DeMarie
Who? The underdog.

Anna Levesque
Hard moves in easy water or flooding?

Melissa DeMarie
Hard moves and easy water all the way.

Anna Levesque
Okay. What’s a word that describes your comfort zone?

Melissa DeMarie
on.

Anna Levesque
Freedom through discipline or I do what I want.

Melissa DeMarie
Freedom through discipline. I grew up training in classical ballet from age two and a half. And so I learned discipline at a very young age. And it is a thing that I always fall back on when things feel hectic.

Anna Levesque
Right.

Anna Levesque
Mm, mm. Okay, in one word, what do you hope your legacy will be?

Melissa DeMarie
Connection. I would love my legacy to be connection.

Anna Levesque
Mm.

Anna Levesque
Love it. Well, thanks for being here, Melissa. I appreciate you. I had fun and yeah, just appreciate you being here. Thank you.

Melissa DeMarie
Thank you so much, Anna, for inviting me. This is really cool. It’s always great seeing your face and hearing your voice, and I’m happy to be on this and support your passion.

Anna Levesque
yeah.

Anna Levesque
Yeah, thank you.